Making a VFR C152 IFR

You're saying unless I want to fly in hard IFR all I really need is a
single com and nav VOR with CDI? No glidescope, no marker beacons??

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
That depends on your comfort level. Unless you want to fly in hard IFR
on a regular basis, you can get by with the minimum equipment. A
handheld GPS and a heldheld radio will serve as good backups in case
you lose electricals. A handheld device is a better backup than a
panel mount device due to the independent power source. In my view
people spend way too much money on these things for the conditions
they are likely to fly in.

Like I said, that depends on your comfort level. If you are not going
to be flying in low IFR conditions (ie ILS minimums), you would not
need a glideslope. How many non-commercial pilots do you know who
frequently fly ILS approaches to the minimums? In my case, I will be
lucky to find such conditions about once or twice a year, even though
I fly quite a bit and I actively look for such conditions. A VOR/LOC
approach will bring you down to 500ft. Most of the low weather
conditions are out of reach for us anyway because of ice or
thunderstorm. In a 152, that's an even bigger factor due to the lower
climb performance. Also, in a 152 you are unlikely to go very far, so
it may not be necessary to equip the airplane for all possible
scenarios. Install only the equipment you need for the airports you
are most likely to fly into. Strictly from a utility point of view, I
would be happy to fly a 152 in light IFR conditions with a single NAV.
If I lose NAV, I would request a surveillance approach. If a marker
beacon is required for the approach, then you would need to have it. A
lot of times, ATC radar can substitute for the marker. Many markers
also have a cross radial. If your radio has a standby frequency, then
it is easy to monitor the intersection. It is inconvenient, of course,
but I would not invest thousands of dollars for the inconvenience. On
the other hand, if you want to use the 152 for training purposes, then
you would need more than the minimally equipped airplane. That is just
my personal view.







Paul Folbrecht wrote in message link.net...
You're saying unless I want to fly in hard IFR all I really need is a
single com and nav VOR with CDI? No glidescope, no marker beacons??

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
That depends on your comfort level. Unless you want to fly in hard IFR
on a regular basis, you can get by with the minimum equipment. A
handheld GPS and a heldheld radio will serve as good backups in case
you lose electricals. A handheld device is a better backup than a
panel mount device due to the independent power source. In my view
people spend way too much money on these things for the conditions
they are likely to fly in.

Paul Folbrecht asks;

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft.......

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin
300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open
to
suggestions on where to go from there.

As others have pointed out, you don't need a heck of a lot more to make
the plane legal for IFR training/flight. Here's what __I'd__ do if I
were you. I'd sell the 300XL (since you got it for a steal, you should
at least get your money back) and buy a used NARCO NAV-122A on Ebay.
You can get a yellow tagged one for about $1300. This is the ONLY piece
of equipment you will need to be able to fly IFR legally - it's a VOR,
LOC, GS, MKR and CDI all in one 3 1/8" hole. You can then legally do
ILS, LOC, and VOR approaches.

I did exactly this in order to make my COZY MKIV IFR capable (for
training purposes and light IFR). Even if you have to pay someone $500
to install it, it's still the cheapest way there, using the least panel
space.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin email:

I seriously considered this advice and looked into the NAV 122. I
talked to a friend of mine and the local avionics shop and they both
told me that Narco has a bad rep for service and gouges you badly to fix
a 122 - and they do break.

As others have pointed out, you don't need a heck of a lot more to make
the plane legal for IFR training/flight. Here's what __I'd__ do if I
were you. I'd sell the 300XL (since you got it for a steal, you should
at least get your money back) and buy a used NARCO NAV-122A on Ebay.
You can get a yellow tagged one for about $1300. This is the ONLY piece
of equipment you will need to be able to fly IFR legally - it's a VOR,
LOC, GS, MKR and CDI all in one 3 1/8" hole. You can then legally do
ILS, LOC, and VOR approaches.

I did exactly this in order to make my COZY MKIV IFR capable (for
training purposes and light IFR). Even if you have to pay someone $500
to install it, it's still the cheapest way there, using the least panel
space.

I've got a Nav 122, and I've used Narco to repair it. I honeslty don't know
where the bad rep comes from, the 122 is a solid unit and I've only had good
experiences with Narco. My 122 has been to Narco twice. Once in 1996 when it
was intermittently losing the localizer. It turned out to be a cracked
resistor. That fix was actually two trips to Narco. The first trip, they
only saw the problem briefly and after cleaning up the unit and recalibrating
it could not reproduce it. After getting it back in the plane, it got more
intermittent so it went back. Narco had the unit a total of 8 days including
time in shipping. It was 11 days from when I first took it out till I had it
back in and working, and a grand total of $152 to fix. There was no charge on
the second trip because once they see it, the whole unit goes under warranty.
The second time was summer 2003 for a PROM that had gone bad after an
alternator overvoltage. The symptom in that case was no localizer on
frequencies that ended with .9x and no glide slope on two frequencies (don't
recall which ones now). Took them about six weeks and cost me $225. My usual
avionics shop told me it wasn't worth repairing and convinced me to replace it
with a KX155/KI209. I figured I would send it to Narco for their $90 eval
(they'll eval a unit for $90 and then call you to see if you want to repair
it, and the $90 is applied to the repair) to see if it could be resurrected to
give me a second glideslope. It is back in my airplane now. I've noticed
that it is noticibly more sensitive than the KX155 for picking up VORs as well
as localizers. Shop measured it to be about 11db more sensitive. The only
thing I like better about the kx155 is the digital flip-flop which allows you
to set up a second frequency ahead of time. One of the nice things about the
122 is that it will cost you next to nothing to get it installed. It is
all-in-one and goes in a standard 3.5" round hole. You just have to hook up
power, audio panel, and the antennas. Oh, it also has a marker beacon
recevier built in if you don't have one in your audio panel. For about $2200
you could have a Narco rebuild installed.

I did my primary instruction and part of my instrument in a BE-77 (beech
skipper) that had a single KX-170 nav-com with no glideslope or markers but
was IFR certified. The cert was OK for picking up an emergency IFR clearance
to get you on the ground, but that's about it. It would be next to reckless
launching off into IFR with such a minimal panel. You can't shoot an ILS with
it (you can do a localizer only approach though), and identifying
intersections requires retuning the NAV and turning the OBS. That is a
prescription for disaster when shooting an approach in worse than anticipated
weather, especially as a low time instrument pilot. The fact that you don't
intend to fly much if any IFR with it should underline that concern. At an
absolute bare minimum, you should have at least something with a digital
flip-flop NAV/COM so that you can set it up to identify intersections and also
to set up your tower/departure frequencies ahead. Even that, is probably
going to be too little when the chips are down. Put the Narco 122 in, that'll
give you a full ILS capability in one instrument, and your existing Nav/comm
will still be there to help with identifying intersections. If your comm is
not a digital flip-flop, you should probably also consider a second comm. I
think this approach will get you a minimal IFR capability for less than the
cost of getting an IFR install on the GX-300





Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I seriously considered this advice and looked into the NAV 122. I
talked to a friend of mine and the local avionics shop and they both
told me that Narco has a bad rep for service and gouges you badly to fix
a 122 - and they do break.

As others have pointed out, you don't need a heck of a lot more to make
the plane legal for IFR training/flight. Here's what __I'd__ do if I
were you. I'd sell the 300XL (since you got it for a steal, you should
at least get your money back) and buy a used NARCO NAV-122A on Ebay.
You can get a yellow tagged one for about $1300. This is the ONLY piece
of equipment you will need to be able to fly IFR legally - it's a VOR,
LOC, GS, MKR and CDI all in one 3 1/8" hole. You can then legally do
ILS, LOC, and VOR approaches.

I did exactly this in order to make my COZY MKIV IFR capable (for
training purposes and light IFR). Even if you have to pay someone $500
to install it, it's still the cheapest way there, using the least panel
space.


--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Thanks for the great reply. You seem to be implying that I won't have a
GS with the setup I proposed - I will. But I see your point in
retaining a 2nd nav. Trouble is, I don't have the panel space - unless
I go with an all in one unit such as the 122.

Ray Andraka wrote:
I've got a Nav 122, and I've used Narco to repair it. I honeslty don't know
where the bad rep comes from, the 122 is a solid unit and I've only had good
experiences with Narco. My 122 has been to Narco twice. Once in 1996 when it
was intermittently losing the localizer. It turned out to be a cracked
resistor. That fix was actually two trips to Narco. The first trip, they
only saw the problem briefly and after cleaning up the unit and recalibrating
it could not reproduce it. After getting it back in the plane, it got more
intermittent so it went back. Narco had the unit a total of 8 days including
time in shipping. It was 11 days from when I first took it out till I had it
back in and working, and a grand total of $152 to fix. There was no charge on
the second trip because once they see it, the whole unit goes under warranty.
The second time was summer 2003 for a PROM that had gone bad after an
alternator overvoltage. The symptom in that case was no localizer on
frequencies that ended with .9x and no glide slope on two frequencies (don't
recall which ones now). Took them about six weeks and cost me $225. My usual
avionics shop told me it wasn't worth repairing and convinced me to replace it
with a KX155/KI209. I figured I would send it to Narco for their $90 eval
(they'll eval a unit for $90 and then call you to see if you want to repair
it, and the $90 is applied to the repair) to see if it could be resurrected to
give me a second glideslope. It is back in my airplane now. I've noticed
that it is noticibly more sensitive than the KX155 for picking up VORs as well
as localizers. Shop measured it to be about 11db more sensitive. The only
thing I like better about the kx155 is the digital flip-flop which allows you
to set up a second frequency ahead of time. One of the nice things about the
122 is that it will cost you next to nothing to get it installed. It is
all-in-one and goes in a standard 3.5" round hole. You just have to hook up
power, audio panel, and the antennas. Oh, it also has a marker beacon
recevier built in if you don't have one in your audio panel. For about $2200
you could have a Narco rebuild installed.

I did my primary instruction and part of my instrument in a BE-77 (beech
skipper) that had a single KX-170 nav-com with no glideslope or markers but
was IFR certified. The cert was OK for picking up an emergency IFR clearance
to get you on the ground, but that's about it. It would be next to reckless
launching off into IFR with such a minimal panel. You can't shoot an ILS with
it (you can do a localizer only approach though), and identifying
intersections requires retuning the NAV and turning the OBS. That is a
prescription for disaster when shooting an approach in worse than anticipated
weather, especially as a low time instrument pilot. The fact that you don't
intend to fly much if any IFR with it should underline that concern. At an
absolute bare minimum, you should have at least something with a digital
flip-flop NAV/COM so that you can set it up to identify intersections and also
to set up your tower/departure frequencies ahead. Even that, is probably
going to be too little when the chips are down. Put the Narco 122 in, that'll
give you a full ILS capability in one instrument, and your existing Nav/comm
will still be there to help with identifying intersections. If your comm is
not a digital flip-flop, you should probably also consider a second comm. I
think this approach will get you a minimal IFR capability for less than the
cost of getting an IFR install on the GX-300





Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I seriously considered this advice and looked into the NAV 122. I
talked to a friend of mine and the local avionics shop and they both
told me that Narco has a bad rep for service and gouges you badly to fix
a 122 - and they do break.


As others have pointed out, you don't need a heck of a lot more to make
the plane legal for IFR training/flight. Here's what __I'd__ do if I
were you. I'd sell the 300XL (since you got it for a steal, you should
at least get your money back) and buy a used NARCO NAV-122A on Ebay.
You can get a yellow tagged one for about $1300. This is the ONLY piece
of equipment you will need to be able to fly IFR legally - it's a VOR,
LOC, GS, MKR and CDI all in one 3 1/8" hole. You can then legally do
ILS, LOC, and VOR approaches.

I did exactly this in order to make my COZY MKIV IFR capable (for
training purposes and light IFR). Even if you have to pay someone $500
to install it, it's still the cheapest way there, using the least panel
space.



--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Depending on what else you have in your panel (I'm talking about
instruments), you're probably only an inspection away from being "legal" for
IFR (see the other poster's note about reading the FARs). In particular,
one nav/com and xpdr can be legal.

More practically, you should figure out what you'll need for the type of
flying you plan to do, and don't forget that there are certain requirements
for the IFR checkride. Namely, you'll need to demonstrate both precision
and non-precision approaches (I'm assuming here that you'll be using your
plane for the checkride). That means, for example, if you don't already
have a glideslope receiver and appropriate CDI, then you should probably get
one.

Since you mentioned IFR GPS, you should know you'll need at least two other
instruments to be IFR legal. One is a CDI which can accept input from the
GPS, and the other is an annunciator for the approach (with a Garmin 430 you
could have avoided the latter).

Here's my setup, which I also arranged for IFR training in my PA28-140:

KMA20 audio
GNC-300XL GPS/comm (same as yours)
KX-175B with glideslope receiver
Narco AT50A xpdr
Garmin GI-106A cdi with glideslope shared between GPS and nav/comm
MidContinent GPS annuniciator

For serious IFR, this isn't the best panel, but it's enough for training,
currency, and the occasional weather flying I do.

best of luck,
mark


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
ink.net...
I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
suggestions on where to go from there.

Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.

I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense to
have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I have
the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR flight.)

TIA.

Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).

Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
discovered that.)

Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
suggestions on where to go from there.

Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.

I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense to
have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I have
the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR flight.)

TIA.

If you're installing the 300xl VFR only, why not just go with a handheld?
Heck, a $300 handheld would beat the 300xl in screen size and features. The
difference could buy a nice handheld com radio to use as a backup, with a
external antenna wired in.

I'm not trying to poop on a decision already made, but if you knew you were
going to be using this as a IFR training plaform, why didn't you search out
a bird with the necessary avionics? Just curious

I can't count the number of folks who get their private certificate and go
out and buy a 150/152, only to wish they bought just a bit more for
instrument training, trips, passengers, etc.


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
k.net...
Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).

Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
discovered that.)

Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
suggestions on where to go from there.

Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.

I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense to
have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I have
the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR
flight.)

TIA.

It took me long enough to find a plane - my #1 priority was a good,
mid-time engine with full logs. That I got.

As for going handheld GPS - doesn't the integration with the COM help a
lot? Autoselecting frequencies and such? I already have a GPS 295 - I
was planning on selling it. They fetch nearly $1000 used still.


Brad Z wrote:
If you're installing the 300xl VFR only, why not just go with a handheld?
Heck, a $300 handheld would beat the 300xl in screen size and features. The
difference could buy a nice handheld com radio to use as a backup, with a
external antenna wired in.

I'm not trying to poop on a decision already made, but if you knew you were
going to be using this as a IFR training plaform, why didn't you search out
a bird with the necessary avionics? Just curious

I can't count the number of folks who get their private certificate and go
out and buy a 150/152, only to wish they bought just a bit more for
instrument training, trips, passengers, etc.


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
k.net...

Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).

Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
discovered that.)

Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
suggestions on where to go from there.

Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.

I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense to
have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I have
the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR

flight.)

TIA.