Procedure Turn

yes.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Brad Z" wrote:
This issue comes up from time to time. The assumption here is that you
are
not being provied vectors for the approach. The official rule is that
unless there is a note allowing the exception of a PT (i.e. 'NoPT'), a
procedure turn is required. So yes, that means a turn in a bold hold or
backtracking out on the approach course for a course reversal.

Next question. Does anybody actually do this? Assuming that you were
already established on the FAC and didn't need to lose any altitude,
does anybody actually do a PT just because a literal reading of the regs
says you're supposed to?

The official rule is that unless there is a note allowing the
exception of a PT (i.e. 'NoPT'), a procedure turn is required.

Is this official rule stated clearly anywhere? The only mention of "procedure
turn" I find in Part 91 is in 91.175(j), which says when you may NOT do a PT.
The AIM discusses procedure turns in 5-4-8 a.:

A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to perform a
course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is a
required maneuver. The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT"
is shown, when RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when
conducting a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized. The
hold in lieu of procedure turn is not required when RADAR VECTORING to the
final approach course is provided or when "No PT" is shown.

But what's the definition of a "course reversal"? If you're already within a
few degrees of being established inbound, is a course reversal necessary? If
so, why?

Barry

Barry wrote:

The official rule is that unless there is a note allowing the
exception of a PT (i.e. 'NoPT'), a procedure turn is required.

Is this official rule stated clearly anywhere? The only mention of "procedure
turn" I find in Part 91 is in 91.175(j), which says when you may NOT do a PT.
The AIM discusses procedure turns in 5-4-8 a.:

A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to perform a
course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is a
required maneuver. The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT"
is shown, when RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when
conducting a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized. The
hold in lieu of procedure turn is not required when RADAR VECTORING to the
final approach course is provided or when "No PT" is shown.

But what's the definition of a "course reversal"? If you're already within a
few degrees of being established inbound, is a course reversal necessary? If
so, why?

Barry

Letter of Legal Interpretation:

Nov. 28, 1994

Mr. Tom Young, Chairman
Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee
Air Line Pilots Association
535 Herndon Parkway
Herndon, VA 22070

Dear Mr. Young

This is a clarification of our response to your letter of August 23, 1993. In that
letter you
requested an interpretation of Section 91.175 of the Federal Aviation Regulation
(FAR) (14 CFR
Section 91.175). You address the necessity of executing a complete Standard
Instrument
Approach Procedure (SIAP) in a non-radar environment while operating under
Instrument Flight
Rules (IFR). Our response assumes that each of the specific scenarios you pose
speaks to a flight
conducted under IFR in a non-radar environment.

Section 91.175(a) provides that unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator,
when an
instrument letdown to a civil airport is necessary, each person operating an
aircraft, except a
military aircraft of the United States, shall use a standard instrument approach
procedure
prescribed for the airport in Part 97.

First you ask whether an arriving aircraft must begin the SIAP at a published
Initial Approach
Fix (IAF). A pilot must begin a SIAP at the IAF as defined in Part 97. Descent
gradients,
communication, and obstruction clearance, as set forth in the U.S. Standard for
Terminal
Instrument Approach Procedures (TERPs), cannot be assured if the entire procedure
is not flown.
You also ask whether a Distance Measuring Equipment (DME) arc initial approach
segment
can be substituted for a published IAF along any portion of the published arc. A
DME arc cannot
be substituted for a published IAF along a portion of the published arc. If a
feeder route to an IAF
is part of the published approach procedure, it is considered a mandatory part of
the approach.
Finally, you ask whether a course reversal segment is optional "when one of the
conditions of
FAR section 91.175(j) is not present." Section 91.175(j) states that in the case
of a radar vector to
a final approach course or fix, a timed approach from a holding fix, or an
approach for which the
procedures specifies "no procedure turn," no pilot may make a procedure turn
unless cleared to
do so by ATC.

****Section 97.3(p) defines a procedure turn, in part, as a maneuver prescribed
when it is necessary
to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on a intermediate or final approach
course. A SIAP
may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the application of certain
criteria contained
in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared
a pilot to
execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the
conditions of Section
91.175(j) is not present.****

If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia R. Lane,
Manager,

Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491.
Sincerely,
/s/
Patricia R. Lane
for Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

Aeronautical Information Manual:

5-4-8. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to perform a
course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an intermediate or final
approach course. The procedure turn or hold in lieu of procedure turn is a
required maneuver. The procedure turn is not required when the symbol "No PT" is
shown, when RADAR VECTORING to the final approach course is provided, when
conducting a timed approach, or when the procedure turn is not authorized. The
hold in lieu of procedure turn is not required when RADAR VECTORING to the final
approach course is provided or when "No PT" is shown. The altitude prescribed for
the procedure turn is a minimum altitude until the aircraft is established on the
inbound course. The maneuver must be completed within the distance specified in
the profile view.

Letter of Legal Interpretation [snipped]

These things are useless. You ask the FAA a question, and they quote the rules
at you as if they were self-evident if only you knew what they were.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Teacherjh wrote:

Letter of Legal Interpretation [snipped]

These things are useless. You ask the FAA a question, and they quote the rules
at you as if they were self-evident if only you knew what they were.


Useless or not, they are used by the FAA in policy making and sometimes in
enforcement proceedings, especially where the interpretation migrates to the AIM.

On 15 Apr 2004 18:03:36 -0700, (Bravo8500) wrote:

I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.

I don't think the AIM is very clear.

I have found in dealing with these kinds of questions that reference to a
specific approach and a specific situation leads to a clearer understanding
of the issues.

This question has been discussed a number of times but the answer to your
specific question is "it depends". The reason the answer is vague is
because you have not given enough information in your generic type
question.

One important item that you left out, in trying to come up with your
example, is the manner in which you became "established on the inbound
course" and "at the correct altitude".

There are a number of ways that can happen that would preclude you from
executing a charted procedure turn. There are ways you can get to that
point only by (you or ATC) violating some other regulation or procedure,
making the question essentially irrelevant. Then there are some procedures
that are improperly charted.

So, in general, if you've arrived at the FAF on course and on altitude, you
should have arrived there either via a NoPT routing or via radar vectors to
final. So in those instances you may NOT execute a procedure turn without
permission from ATC.

But if you are not on radar VTF, and not arriving via a NoPT route, (and
not doing timed approaches), then you will need to execute the procedure
turn.

I suppose I would have to ask the controller.

So far as asking the controller, they will probably "let you do" most
anything you request, so long as it does not violate the regulations and
procedures under which *they* operate. But be aware that if what you do is
not in accord with the expectations of the approach designer, you may be
cutting your safety margin to unacceptable levels.

Do you have a specific situation and approach about which you are
concerned?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Bravo8500" wrote in message
om...

I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.


How did you come to be established on the inbound course at the correct
altitude?

That language isn't clear to you? It is clear to me.

The real question: How did you come about getting established inbound at
the proper altitude without busting some other requirement of the
procedure?

Bravo8500 wrote:

I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.

I don't think the AIM is very clear.

From the following paragraph, I read that it is ...

5-4-8. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an
intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold in
lieu of procedure turn is a required maneuver.

However, from this entry a few lines down, I wonder ...
b. Limitations on Procedure Turns.
...
2. When a teardrop procedure turn is depicted and a course reversal is
required, this type turn must be executed.

"When a course reversal is required" ??? And even in the first
paragraph it says "when it is necessary to perform a course reversal"

I'm thinking I don't have to. I know this situation doesn't happen
that often but when it does, I don't really have the answer, I suppose
I would have to ask the controller.

I appreciate your input.

I'm wondering. If you're already at the proper altitude and on the
localizer, why not? You can make a procedure turn any way you want to if
you stay on the protected side and inside protected airspace, so why can't
you say you've already made your procedure turn?

Rod
"Bravo8500" wrote in message
om...
I'm pretty sure this question has been asked, but I can't seem to find
it. My question deals with a typical approach with a procedure turn
before the FAF, could be an NDB, VOR, GPS, etc. I know what the
purposes are. 1) Provide course reversal and 2) allow altitude loss
from the arrival altitude to the procedure turn altitude. My question
is, am I expected to make the turn it if I'm already established on
the inbound course and am already at the correct altitude.

I don't think the AIM is very clear.


From the following paragraph, I read that it is ...

5-4-8. Procedure Turn
a. A procedure turn is the maneuver prescribed when it is necessary to
perform a course reversal to establish the aircraft inbound on an
intermediate or final approach course. The procedure turn or hold in
lieu of procedure turn is a required maneuver.

However, from this entry a few lines down, I wonder ...
b. Limitations on Procedure Turns.
...
2. When a teardrop procedure turn is depicted and a course reversal is
required, this type turn must be executed.


"When a course reversal is required" ??? And even in the first
paragraph it says "when it is necessary to perform a course reversal"

I'm thinking I don't have to. I know this situation doesn't happen
that often but when it does, I don't really have the answer, I suppose
I would have to ask the controller.

I appreciate your input.

"Rod Madsen" wrote in message
.. .

I'm wondering. If you're already at the proper altitude and on the
localizer, why not?


I'm wondering how you came to be on the localizer at the proper altitude
without either a radar vector or a NoPT segment or out of a holding fix.