Busted IFR Checkride

A Lieberman wrote in
:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect
entry procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your
next move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of
travel.

Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

Allen


I can understand that a recommended entry will keep things neat and
tidy. But that can't be the reason for requiring holds for recency
experience. It's got to be something more important than that. A hold
ranks way up there with an instrument approach when it comes to
currency.

A VFR traffic pattern is not a fair comparison because the traffic
pattern could packed full of airplanes bumper to bumper. That can't be
the case under IFR. I am not sure what kind of separation is used by ATC
when in a hold. It can't be that close because the turn radius depends
on the aircraft speed. During the outbound turn from the holding fix, a
Citation will go past the holding fix much farther than a 172.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I am not sure what kind of separation is used by ATC
when in a hold. It can't be that close because the turn radius depends
on the aircraft speed. During the outbound turn from the holding fix, a
Citation will go past the holding fix much farther than a 172.

Of course. All this is covered in TERPS

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/directives%20page.htm

If you read the chapter on holds, you will know more than you ever
wanted to about how these things are figured out. Faster airplanes are
allotted more protected airspace.

A Lieberman wrote:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

From ATC's perspective, there is lots of protected airspace for a holding
pattern, unless you are holding at max speed (almost never less than 200
knots).

The entires are part of the criteria design to assure that you don't depart
protected airspace.

Some folks never get holds. Other, especially those who use the IFR system
often, get lots of holds. Most of them are direct entries, however.

Holding entries and figuring out the proper side is a great tool for an
examiner or inspector to determine whether the applicant has a good feeling
for what it is all about.

wrote:

Holding entries and figuring out the proper side is a great tool for an
examiner or inspector to determine whether the applicant has a good
feeling for what it is all about.

I think that this is significant. When I could get a hold instruction and
know how I'd enter it w/o a lot of work, my brain was more prepared for
IMC. Think of it as a mind-stretching puzzle which exercises situational
awareness.

- Andrew

Some good guesses, but I think I can suggest some better ones...

A Lieberman wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote:


Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?


My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

ATC is not going to assign holds to two aircraft at the same holding point at
the same altitude. So unless "improper entry" includes an altitude bust, I don't
think this is a problem.


The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

I don't think ATC can see well enough (or cares) what kind of entry you perform.


Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

I think a better answer is that doing the prescribed entry gives you the most
margin for error while keeping you inside protected airspace. If you're buzzing
around in a C172, your turn radius is tight and there's plenty of protected
airspace, and you can screw up the entry big-time and still stay protected. If
you're flying at the limits of holding airspeed, and the wind is blowing, and
you're a little sloppy with your navigation, and you do the wrong entry, it may
put you outside protected airspace.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly

Dave Butler wrote:

Some good guesses, but I think I can suggest some better ones...


ATC is not going to assign holds to two aircraft at the same holding point at
the same altitude. So unless "improper entry" includes an altitude bust, I don't
think this is a problem.

I'll give you something better than guesses. Controllers working traffic don't
care, perhaps, but their managers do. There are holding patterns in the New York
and Washington Center areas that are so close to each other, that speed is limited
to 200 knots above 6,000 to keep the patterns from overlapping. Improper entires,
at least in jets, could cause an aircraft to go into the other pattern's airspace.
This was demonstrated in holding pattern criteria meetings. Radar doesn't help,
because radar service is usually terminated in these busy patterns due to multiple
merging targets.




The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

I don't think ATC can see well enough (or cares) what kind of entry you perform.


That's right, they can't see well enough to help out in conjested airspace.



Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

I think a better answer is that doing the prescribed entry gives you the most
margin for error while keeping you inside protected airspace. If you're buzzing
around in a C172, your turn radius is tight and there's plenty of protected
airspace, and you can screw up the entry big-time and still stay protected. If
you're flying at the limits of holding airspeed, and the wind is blowing, and
you're a little sloppy with your navigation, and you do the wrong entry, it may
put you outside protected airspace.

In a Cessna 172, no doubt about it. But, the instrument rating is not a rating ride
limited to 172's.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life.

I get them once in a while around New York. Sometimes it's for flow
control, but sometimes it's to meet LOA's. Departing HPN to the
northeast, you typically get vectors to Carmel VOR. There seems to be
an LOA which requires you to cross Carmel at or above 5000 before being
handed off to the next controller. On a hot summer day, sometimes I
can't make 5000 and I get to climb in a hold until I do.

Oddly enough, I've never gotten "cross CMK at or above 5000" as part of
my clearance, but if I'm not at 5000 by the time I get there, I can
pretty much count on getting a hold.

As often as not, the holding instructions (whether for the CMK climb or
for anything else) will be something like "just give me a couple of left
360's right there". I would suggest not trying to demonstrate one of
those on a checkride, though :-)

Why are they required for the recency experience and the checkride?

I suspect in part because they're used so infrequently. Things you
don't do very often are the things you tend to forget and thus need to
practice.

Also, why are the entry procedures so important?

In theory, if you don't use the proper entry, you may stray out of the
protected airspace. However, the protected airspace is so large
compared to the turn radius of a spam can, it's usually not a real
problem.

On the other hand, a lot of the published en-route holds around New York
have notations like "max holding speed 210 kts" (obviously not a problem
for you or me). I can only assume that the limit the holding speed so
they can reduce the size of the protected airspace. In a situation like
that, using the correct entry may indeed be important.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride? Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My instructor told me I needed to learn the proper entries to keep the
DE happy, but in the real world the issue was to remain on the protected
side of the pattern and within the distance limits of the fix.


Matt

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 158...
I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride?


People could say that about learning to do full approaches - many places you
get vectors all the time. In fact, my instructor joked that the pilots in
my area were so poorly prepared that they should be issued a "Long Island
Radar Vector" rating.

A hold is a pretty basic maneuver - if you can't do it you have no business
with an instrument rating.


Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?







"Bob Gardner" wrote in
news:llYhc.4783$YP5.441855@attbi_s02:

Not a biggie. Life goes on. Sorry that it happened, but considering
that you will spend an infinitesimal amount of time actually holding
in real life (not counting doing it to stay current), you got the
important stuff behind you.

Bob Gardner

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn
fustrated that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the
airport... Then I thought to myself "what are you going to do there
pout?" :-) I then decided to go ahead with the rest of the ride
and get it out of the way. I did OK... not great but passable...
This DE made it pretty easy on me... He was telling me about his IFR
checkride and him busting on his first attempt too... He busted on
the holding pattern too so I didn't feel that bad.. He now has
14,000+ hours and doesn't worry about his busted IFR checkride so I
figured why should I... Now I just need to go back up with my
instructor once, do the freakn' holding pattern... Go back up with
the DE... do the freakn' holding pattern and be done... More to
follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA Argggg...

Andrew Sarangan wrote
I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride? Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

Interestingly enough, this topic constituted the bulk of my CFII oral.

First off, I agree with you - holds are pretty rare in the real world,
and in the stuff we fly there is, for all practical purposes, no way
to leave the protected airspace. Thus the official reason for
learning holds is bogus.

However, there are two reasons why they are important - one
operational, one training.

First the operational reason - holds are sometimes used for course
reversal on approaches in lieu of procedure turns. In such a case,
you are expected to do only the hold entry. Further, for your own
good you need to be well established on the inbound course before
crossing the fix. Finally, when this is done, the reason the hold was
chosen over the PT was to keep you out of airspace or obstructions.
So the bottom line is holding is not important until it it. Still,
there are other items that fall into that category (for example IFR
departures from VFR fields) that are not covered at all.

The training reason is the more compelling - good holding requires
good situational awareness. In fact, the hold is the best test of
situational awareness on the checkride. If you don't know where you
are, where you are going, and what the wind is doing you will not make
a good entry.

I doubt there have been too many cases where a bad hold entry killed
someone (it would have to take some very special circumstances) but
poor situational awareness is probably the number one killer in IFR
operations.

Michael