Getting the MOCA

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:P%Xmg.34553$AB3.17954@fed1read02...

If the MOCA is below the MIA do you believe a center controller would
clear an aircraft at MOCA beyond 22 miles?


Do you understand that he can? Do you understand that a pilot can legally
request the MOCA at any point on an airway?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:P%Xmg.34553$AB3.17954@fed1read02...

If the MOCA is below the MIA do you believe a center controller would
clear an aircraft at MOCA beyond 22 miles?



Do you understand that he can? Do you understand that a pilot can legally
request the MOCA at any point on an airway?


No, I don't. I keep reading the FARs, unlike you.

Sam Spade wrote:
Dan wrote:

What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan

The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station,
nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a
Victor airway within the rules.

That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.


What are you basing that on? FAR 91.177 does not contain the phrase "unless
otherwise authorized by ATC".

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.

That's correct. The controllers MVA/MIA may be lower than the MEA. If
that is the case then an altitude below the MEA can be assigned if
you're trying to get into VMC for example. And approach control does
not always have lower MVA's than Center has MIA's. When we work with
Salt Lake their radar antenna for our area is on the top of a mountain
in the Bighorn Mountains about 60 miles south of us here in Billings.
Their MIA is much lower than my MVA from about 30 miles south of me out
to the end of my coverage. Often times an aircraft will want lower than
I can give so I just work it out with the center and have ZLC work him
so he can stay low. Another example is the route between BIL and Cody,
WY. There is an airway with an 8400 MEA between our two VOR's. However
the centers MIA is down around 7000, mine however is 9300 on the
southern end. ZLC will often send guys this way at 7000 between the two
mountain ranges on the airway. We just coordinate and I don't work them
until about 25 miles out where my MVA allows it.

"Newps" wrote in message
...

That's correct. The controllers MVA/MIA may be lower than the MEA. If
that is the case then an altitude below the MEA can be assigned if you're
trying to get into VMC for example.

That's not correct. The MIA/MVA is the lowest altitude that can be assigned
where MEAs have not been established. Where MEAs have been established,
which is on airways, the minimum altitude is the MEA unless a MOCA applies.
Of course, the way around that is to simply clear the aircraft direct to a
fix up ahead.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0405.html#4-5-6

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:

Dan wrote:


What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan


The MOCA cannot be assigned except within 22 miles of the VOR station,
nor can you legally request it. It's your responsibility to use a
Victor airway within the rules.


That's actually not true. It is legal to fly any altitude you are
assigned. The controller's minimum altitude in that area may be lower
than your MEA.

-Robert


A center MIA in some cases is, indeed, lower than a particular Victor
Airways MEA and, in some cases, the MIA may be higher.

And, if ATC is willing to provide the service, which includes radar
monitoring of your progress when assigned a Victor Airway below the MEA,
that is, of course legal.

But, it isn't assignment of the Victor Airway because the Victor Airway
simply doesn't exist below its MEA (or MOCA beyond 22 miles) as a matter
of regulation.

That is why the careful controller states, in such circumstances, "via
the radials of Victor such-and-such."

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:fWapg.77$_M.1@fed1read04...

And, if ATC is willing to provide the service, which includes radar
monitoring of your progress when assigned a Victor Airway below the MEA,
that is, of course legal.


Only if a MOCA applies and then only within 22 miles of a VOR. Radar
monitoring is not required.


§ 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary for
takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below-

(1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in parts 95 and 97 of this
chapter; or

(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those parts-

(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous area
in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a
horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown; or

(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle
within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be
flown.

However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route or
route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down to, but
not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned
(based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance).

(b) Climb. Climb to a higher minimum IFR altitude shall begin immediately
after passing the point beyond which that minimum altitude applies, except
that when ground obstructions intervene, the point beyond which that higher
minimum altitude applies shall be crossed at or above the applicable MCA.




But, it isn't assignment of the Victor Airway because the Victor Airway
simply doesn't exist below its MEA (or MOCA beyond 22 miles) as a matter
of regulation.



That's not correct. Victor airways, unless otherwise specified, extend
upward from 1,200 feet to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:fWapg.77$_M.1@fed1read04...

And, if ATC is willing to provide the service, which includes radar
monitoring of your progress when assigned a Victor Airway below the MEA,
that is, of course legal.



Only if a MOCA applies and then only within 22 miles of a VOR. Radar
monitoring is not required.

Asked and answered previously.


§ 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when necessary for
takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft under IFR below-

(1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in parts 95 and 97 of this
chapter; or

(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those parts-

(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a mountainous area
in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a
horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be flown; or

(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle
within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical miles from the course to be
flown.

However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a particular route or
route segment, a person may operate an aircraft below the MEA down to, but
not below, the MOCA, when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned
(based on the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance).

(b) Climb. Climb to a higher minimum IFR altitude shall begin immediately
after passing the point beyond which that minimum altitude applies, except
that when ground obstructions intervene, the point beyond which that higher
minimum altitude applies shall be crossed at or above the applicable MCA.




But, it isn't assignment of the Victor Airway because the Victor Airway
simply doesn't exist below its MEA (or MOCA beyond 22 miles) as a matter
of regulation.




That's not correct. Victor airways, unless otherwise specified, extend
upward from 1,200 feet to, but not including, 18,000 feet MSL.


That is not correct. Your confusing Part 71 with Part 95. Part 71
provides the Class E airspace for a Victor Airway. Part 95 provides the
minimum altitudes for a Victor Airway. They are not the same.

I just file for the altitude I want. If I get it, fine. Usually I get
it. If not I will request it from Departure or Center during climb..
Sometimes I get what I want, sometimes we haggle out a compromise.
Almost always it is below the MEA.

I do this typically when headwinds are strong and I always explain the
reason to the controller. Often a Center controller will even allow me
to be non-radar (below his view) and ask me to report position once in
a while.

On 6/23/2006 1:52 AM, Dan wrote the following:
What are the odds of getting the MOCA instead of the MEA going from the
Phoenix area to Santa Fe? Anyone know? I like to be IFR for the
services, but the MEAs are a pain....

--Dan