OK, FAR Lawers we need your help!

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

See AIM 1-1-20c.7. WAAS may be used as a stand-alone
system anywhere in the NAS.

GPS cannot substitute for a VOR.


Odd, then, that FAAO 7110.65 allows controllers to issue airways routing
to
GPS-equipped aircraft when the navaids defining those airways are not in
service.

Yeah, I noticed that contradiction, too. I regularly use McCord VOR as a
waypoint for airway routing even though the thing has been OPTS for years.

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net...
Recently the COE VOR was notamed OTS. Coincedent with this the KSZT
LOC/DME
was notamed NA. The explanation given was that the COE VOR was nessasary
to
fly the tranition (COE is the IAF) and the missed approach (the missed
ends
with a hold at the COE VOR). I contend that GPS can substitute for the
VOR
but I can't find it witten down anywhere. The KSZT LOC, DME and ADF are
all
working properly. Our question is: Was the KSZT LOC/DME approach
improperly NOTAMed NA? Can you cite a source? Remember we are talking
about substituting GPS for the VOR to fly the transition, we are not
talking
about substituting for the LOC.

AIM 1-1-19 says:
f. Use of GPS in lieu of ADF and DME

1. Subject to the restrictions below, operators in the U.S. NAS are
authorized to use GPS equipment certified for IFR operations in place of ADF
and/or DME equipment for en route and terminal operations. For some
operations there is no requirement for the aircraft to be equipped with an
ADF or DME receiver, see subparagraphs f6(g) and (h) below. The ground-based
NDB or DME facility may be temporarily out of service during these
operations. Charting will not change to support these operations.

---------------------------------------------

There is no provision for GPS to be used in lieu of VOR. 1-1-20 addresses
the use of WAAS. WAAS eliminates the requirement for backup navigation
systems and may be used stand-alone. You may, of course, use GPS to navigate
to a location that happens to be a VOR, just as you may use GPS to navigate
to any other point, but if you have no VOR you cannot use it for an
approach. If you have WAAS you may use it for any approach authorized for
WAAS (these approaches are annotated as such) and need no ground radios at
all.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net...
Recently the COE VOR was notamed OTS. Coincedent with this the KSZT
LOC/DME
was notamed NA. The explanation given was that the COE VOR was
nessasary
to
fly the tranition (COE is the IAF) and the missed approach (the missed
ends
with a hold at the COE VOR). I contend that GPS can substitute for the
VOR
but I can't find it witten down anywhere. The KSZT LOC, DME and ADF are
all
working properly. Our question is: Was the KSZT LOC/DME approach
improperly NOTAMed NA? Can you cite a source? Remember we are talking
about substituting GPS for the VOR to fly the transition, we are not
talking
about substituting for the LOC.

AIM 1-1-19 says:
f. Use of GPS in lieu of ADF and DME

1. Subject to the restrictions below, operators in the U.S. NAS are
authorized to use GPS equipment certified for IFR operations in place of
ADF
and/or DME equipment for en route and terminal operations. For some
operations there is no requirement for the aircraft to be equipped with an
ADF or DME receiver, see subparagraphs f6(g) and (h) below. The
ground-based
NDB or DME facility may be temporarily out of service during these
operations. Charting will not change to support these operations.

---------------------------------------------

There is no provision for GPS to be used in lieu of VOR. 1-1-20
addresses
the use of WAAS. WAAS eliminates the requirement for backup navigation
systems and may be used stand-alone. You may, of course, use GPS to
navigate
to a location that happens to be a VOR, just as you may use GPS to
navigate
to any other point, but if you have no VOR you cannot use it for an
approach. If you have WAAS you may use it for any approach authorized for
WAAS (these approaches are annotated as such) and need no ground radios at
all.



So, if I had WAAS and nothing else, I could fly the transition but the VOR
has to be operational even though I don't have a VOR reciever onboard?

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net...


So, if I had WAAS and nothing else, I could fly the transition but the VOR
has to be operational even though I don't have a VOR reciever onboard?


No. You can't fly the VOR unless you have VOR on board and the VOR on the
ground is operational. You may substitute WAAS for the VOR if the approach
has been approved for WAAS.

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:21:21 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

No. You can't fly the VOR unless you have VOR on board and the VOR on the
ground is operational. You may substitute WAAS for the VOR if the approach
has been approved for WAAS.

That is directly contrary to what is in the AIM with regard to overlay
approaches, whether or not WAAS is mentioned.

" h. GPS Approach Procedures

.... During these GPS approaches [referring to overlay approaches],
underlying ground-based NAVAIDs are not required to be operational and
associated aircraft avionics need not be installed, operational, turned on
or monitored "


--ron

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 08:21:21 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

No. You can't fly the VOR unless you have VOR on board and the VOR on the
ground is operational. You may substitute WAAS for the VOR if the
approach
has been approved for WAAS.

That is directly contrary to what is in the AIM with regard to overlay
approaches, whether or not WAAS is mentioned.

" h. GPS Approach Procedures

... During these GPS approaches [referring to overlay approaches],
underlying ground-based NAVAIDs are not required to be operational and
associated aircraft avionics need not be installed, operational, turned on
or monitored "


That's an overlay approach, a "VOR or GPS RWY 24" approach, for example.
For an approach like that you don't need a VOR, but you would for a "VOR RWY
24" approach.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:57:15 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


There is no provision for GPS to be used in lieu of VOR.

There is for approaches. See 1-1-19 h.

"As the production of stand-alone GPS approaches has progressed, many of
the original overlay approaches have been replaced with stand-alone
procedures specifically designed for use by GPS systems. The title of the
remaining GPS overlay procedures has been revised on the approach chart to
"or GPS" (e.g., VOR or GPS RWY 24). Therefore, all the approaches that can
be used by GPS now contain "GPS" in the title (e.g., "VOR or GPS RWY 24,"
"GPS RWY 24," or "RNAV (GPS) RWY 24"). During these GPS approaches,
underlying ground-based NAVAIDs are not required to be operational and
associated aircraft avionics need not be installed, operational, turned on
or monitored (monitoring of the underlying approach is suggested when
equipment is available and functional). Existing overlay approaches may be
requested using the GPS title, such as "GPS RWY 24" for the VOR or GPS RWY
24".


--ron

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:57:15 -0700, "C J Campbell"
wrote:


There is no provision for GPS to be used in lieu of VOR.

There is for approaches. See 1-1-19 h.

"As the production of stand-alone GPS approaches has progressed, many of
the original overlay approaches have been replaced with stand-alone
procedures specifically designed for use by GPS systems. The title of the
remaining GPS overlay procedures has been revised on the approach chart to
"or GPS" (e.g., VOR or GPS RWY 24). Therefore, all the approaches that can
be used by GPS now contain "GPS" in the title (e.g., "VOR or GPS RWY 24,"
"GPS RWY 24," or "RNAV (GPS) RWY 24"). During these GPS approaches,
underlying ground-based NAVAIDs are not required to be operational and
associated aircraft avionics need not be installed, operational, turned on
or monitored (monitoring of the underlying approach is suggested when
equipment is available and functional). Existing overlay approaches may be
requested using the GPS title, such as "GPS RWY 24" for the VOR or GPS RWY
24".


If you're using GPS to fly a "VOR or GPS RWY 24" you're not substituting GPS
for the VOR. The approach can be flown with either one.

OK, now it gets interesting! The VOR is still NOTAMed OTS but the KSZT
LOC/DME approach isn't!

Any thoughts?

Mike
MU-2

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:33:56 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

If you're using GPS to fly a "VOR or GPS RWY 24" you're not substituting GPS
for the VOR. The approach can be flown with either one.

Exactly the point.
--ron