Procedure turn in Strong X-wind

Forget the 45-180 and do a 270-90 into the wind.

Bob Gardner

"smackey" wrote in message
m...
OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?

Forget the 45-180 and do a 270-90 into the wind.

Even better, do a 90-0-270 into the wind, where the 0 (continue straight ahead) lasts for 30 seconds or so (depending on the wind you are countering).
This will make up for the drift during the turns. You'll be turning a total of 360 degrees to make a U turn this way, for a total of two minutes.
With (say) a 30 knot crosswind, you'd drift one mile in that time. At 90 knots, you could recover that in 45 seconds. At 120 it would take half a
minute.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

(smackey) wrote
OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?

I teach a procedure turn as a timed turn - 15 seconds at standard
rate. Here's why:

Procedure turns are rare. Most of the time, you get vectors to final.
Typically most of the procedures the average IFR pilot will do will
be in training (initial and recurrent), and much of that training
should be partial panel. Why not make it a procedure that is the
same, full or partial panel?

Your situation is another example - turning to the published heading
won't work, but turning 15 seconds at standard rate (approximately 45
degrees) will work fine.

Legally, you can do whatever course reversal you want as long as you
do it on the barb side. What you are describing will work fine.

Michael

(smackey) wrote in
m:

OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT.

No, that's on the plate only for information, to tell you what heading a 45
degree turn would require. You can fly any heading you like, and any time
you like, as long as you are on the PT side of the course and remain within
10 miles. You certainly want to compensate for crosswinds, and the easiest
way is to turn 45 degrees from the heading you were holding outbound. That's
not required, it's just a quick guess. Using the GPS to maintain a ground
track of 207 also works, if you have one. The only real requirements are to
make the turn on the barbed side, stay within 10 miles, and intercept the
final approach course without overshooting too badly.

--
Regards,

Stan

Y'Al.l,
Very much in agreement with Bob Gardner about 90/270 and not the FAA's
80/260. After a pilot has his rating I recommend forgetting all the
formalities of holding patterns and procedure turns and using only the
90/270 to the procedure side.

Regarding strong winds. The LDA into CCR CA is an interesting approach in
that it is right angles to the only ground level wind entry of the entire
California coastline through the Golden Gate.

The initial part of the approach has winds that require 30 to 40 degree wind
corrections but at the FAF the hills block most of the winds at a lower
altitude and often no wind correction is required.

The other day I flew with a retread pilot into Sacramento Executive where we
were tracking the VOR with a 30+ wind correction angle and made our base
entry to 30 with much the same angle. We literally slid sideways down to
the runway.

Gene Whitt

Very much in agreement with Bob Gardner about 90/270 and not the FAA's
80/260.

What does the extra ten degrees provide you? (or is there something else in the article, which I haven't seen, that I'm missing?

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Thanks for all the feedback. It has been helpful. Yes, we do get
some good xwinds here; todays winds aloft here are projected at 49k at
9000, 35k at 6000.

Jose,
The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and remembering
where to turn.

The system is called the 'sum of the digits'

Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit.

Example #1 030 = 3
Example #2 290 = 11 = 2

The sum of the digits every 90-degrees all the way around the dial will
equal 3 or 2 in both cases. It works for every number on both
the 90-degree numbers and 45-degree numbers.
Example #1
030 = 3; 120 = 3; 210= 3; 300 = 3
Example #2
290 = 11 = 2; 020= 2; 110 = 2; 200= 2

Works all the time everytime.
Gene

"Gene Whitt" wrote in message
ink.net...
Jose,
The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and remembering
where to turn.

The system is called the 'sum of the digits'

Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit.

Example #1 030 = 3
Example #2 290 = 11 = 2

The sum of the digits every 90-degrees all the way around the dial will
equal 3 or 2 in both cases. It works for every number on both
the 90-degree numbers and 45-degree numbers.
Example #1
030 = 3; 120 = 3; 210= 3; 300 = 3
Example #2
290 = 11 = 2; 020= 2; 110 = 2; 200= 2

I'm not following you, Gene. I know that the sum of the digits trick is a
quick way to determine if something is divisible by three, but how does that
tell you the 90 and 270 degree headings?


Works all the time everytime.
Gene

The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and remembering
where to turn.

The system is called the 'sum of the digits'

Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit... (math snipped)


Cool piece of math (even more interesting =why= it works, and how it translates into other bases). However, to find my entry, I just look at the DG
and pick the number that's off to the side. I turn there, then turn opposite onto the course. No math needed. The ten degrees one way or another
doesn't make any difference.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.