Crossing an NDB 3 times on an approach?

Gentlemen, to recap, my example was with a parallel entry, where after
first crossing the ndb you are on the non holding side. So where do
you start descent then?

Also, after the first 1 minute and turn back to the holding side, in
the direction of the ndb, you perhaps may decide not to intercept the
inbound course but proceed direct to the fix. So now you proceed
straight in?

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:31:01 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

Jim Macklin wrote:
You are officially "in the hold" the first time you cross
the fix {in this case the NDB or a VOR} and if you're
established on the inbound course after intercepting the
course after your teardrop or direct entry, you can proceed
inbound or you have the option at pilot's discretion to go
around until you're established and ready.

If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure turn (bold
type, and you have been cleared for the approach, you are only allowed
one circuit in the hold unless you obtain a clearance for more than one
circuit.

(AIM 5-4-9 a 4)

Also, after the first 1 minute and turn back to the holding side, in
the direction of the ndb, you perhaps may decide not to intercept the
inbound course but proceed direct to the fix. So now you proceed
straight in?

While it's true that you don't have the benefit of a minute of flying to
determine wind correction, when you are over the NDB you know exactly
where you are and what direction you are facing. If you've approached
it with a 30 degree intercept, you may well have a good idea of what the
winds are. So, yes, I don't see any danger (in most situations) in
proceeding straight in.

This is, of course, different from saying that this is what the rules say.

Jose

--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:

Also, after the first 1 minute and turn back to the holding side, in
the direction of the ndb, you perhaps may decide not to intercept the
inbound course but proceed direct to the fix. So now you proceed
straight in?


While it's true that you don't have the benefit of a minute of flying to
determine wind correction, when you are over the NDB you know exactly
where you are and what direction you are facing. If you've approached
it with a 30 degree intercept, you may well have a good idea of what the
winds are. So, yes, I don't see any danger (in most situations) in
proceeding straight in.

This is, of course, different from saying that this is what the rules say.



The difference is because the proper execution of a holding pattern
(especially a course reversal holding pattern on an IAP) requires flying
inbound on course. If the pilot elects to fly offcourse inbound, he has
nonetheless used up his one circuit in the hold (absent further
clearance to a second circuit).

wrote:

Gentlemen, to recap, my example was with a parallel entry, where after
first crossing the ndb you are on the non holding side. So where do
you start descent then?

When you roll out inbound.

Also, after the first 1 minute and turn back to the holding side, in
the direction of the ndb, you perhaps may decide not to intercept the
inbound course but proceed direct to the fix. So now you proceed
straight in?

Yes, you're still inbound in the holding pattern.

Sam, you can't start descent during the turn once you cross over onto
the holding side?

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 07:19:56 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

wrote:
Gentlemen, to recap, my example was with a parallel entry, where after
first crossing the ndb you are on the non holding side. So where do
you start descent then?


When you roll out inbound.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:31:01 -0800, Sam Spade
wrote:

Jim Macklin wrote:
You are officially "in the hold" the first time you cross
the fix {in this case the NDB or a VOR} and if you're
established on the inbound course after intercepting the
course after your teardrop or direct entry, you can proceed
inbound or you have the option at pilot's discretion to go
around until you're established and ready.

If the hold is for course reversal in lieu of a procedure turn (bold
type, and you have been cleared for the approach, you are only allowed
one circuit in the hold unless you obtain a clearance for more than one
circuit.


That is also a required reporting point.


(AIM 5-4-9 a 4)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

wrote:
Would it make sense to cross an NDB 3 times in the completion of an
approach?

I'm thinking where there is a hold in lieu of a PT, you may cross the
NDB, complete a parallel hold entry, cross the NDB a second time, then
do a racetrack with timing and descent, then cross a third time as the
FAF.... Normal ops?

Once you've made the hold entry and are inbound at the fix, you've
completed the hold. You don't need to go around again.

Ron Natalie wrote:

wrote:

Would it make sense to cross an NDB 3 times in the completion of an
approach?

I'm thinking where there is a hold in lieu of a PT, you may cross the
NDB, complete a parallel hold entry, cross the NDB a second time, then
do a racetrack with timing and descent, then cross a third time as the
FAF.... Normal ops?


Once you've made the hold entry and are inbound at the fix, you've
completed the hold. You don't need to go around again.

If you have approach clearance you can't go around again without an
amended clearance.