When does IFR begin in VFR?

Wizard of Draws wrote:
Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.

It sounds like things happened in two chunks. Within a single call, the
elements will (or at least should be) in CRAFT order, but you had it broken
up into two parts.

First, he gave you a transponder code. You entered that, he found you on
radar, and he declared "radar contact". Now he can apply IFR radar
separation rules, which greatly reduces the amount of airspace he needs to
dedicate to you.

Next, he gave you your clearance. You already had a code and a frequency,
so he just gave you the new stuff, in CRAFT order, i.e. just the CRA part.

On 2/8/05 8:20 AM, in article ,
"Roy Smith" wrote:

Wizard of Draws wrote:
Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.

It sounds like things happened in two chunks. Within a single call, the
elements will (or at least should be) in CRAFT order, but you had it broken
up into two parts.

First, he gave you a transponder code. You entered that, he found you on
radar, and he declared "radar contact". Now he can apply IFR radar
separation rules, which greatly reduces the amount of airspace he needs to
dedicate to you.

Next, he gave you your clearance. You already had a code and a frequency,
so he just gave you the new stuff, in CRAFT order, i.e. just the CRA part.

Aha! Thanks.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws wrote:

Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first. It was
a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get clearance
on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a plan
in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work off.

I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you were not being
issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.

Dave Butler wrote:
I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you
were not being issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.

Actually, he did get it in CRAFT order. On any given transmission,
any or all of the elements are optional, but the ones that are given
will be in the right order. In this case, the only one included was
the T, and it was in the right order :-)

If you listen closely, you'll notice the pattern on every controller
transmission, even for trivial things:

"left on charlie, ground point eight" (route, frequency)

"cleared for takeoff, fly runway heading" (clearance limit, route)

"make a left downwind for 34, contact tower 118.57" (route, frequency)

The one exception I can think of is "Squawk VFR, frequency change
approved".

Roy Smith wrote:

If you listen closely, you'll notice the pattern on every controller
transmission, even for trivial things:

Quite so. Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out, Roy.

On a takeoff clearance the last thing that should be said is cleared for
takeoff.



Roy Smith wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:

I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you
were not being issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.


Actually, he did get it in CRAFT order. On any given transmission,
any or all of the elements are optional, but the ones that are given
will be in the right order. In this case, the only one included was
the T, and it was in the right order :-)

If you listen closely, you'll notice the pattern on every controller
transmission, even for trivial things:

"left on charlie, ground point eight" (route, frequency)

"cleared for takeoff, fly runway heading" (clearance limit, route)

"make a left downwind for 34, contact tower 118.57" (route, frequency)

The one exception I can think of is "Squawk VFR, frequency change
approved".

The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.



Dave Butler wrote:
Wizard of Draws wrote:

Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.
It was
a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get
clearance
on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a
plan
in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work
off.


I think you didn't get the information in CRAFT order because you were
not being issued a clearance, just a VFR squawk.

Newps wrote:
The squawk was an IFR squawk. There's a difference. A VFR one won't
give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.

How do you know it was an IFR squawk?

A VFR one won't give controllers a low altitude alert, an IFR squawk will.

By VFR squawk do you mean just 1200, or do you mean any of a set of
codes which ATC tags as not an IFR aircraft?

Jose
--
Nothing is more powerful than a commercial interest.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws wrote:

I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

Hi Jeff,

This happened to me once leaving KMBO with a ceiling of 2000. Controller
advised me that I could leave VFR and pick up my clearance when I contacted
approach. So, I departed per usual VFR rules, and when I contacted
approach, I said:

Jackson, 43 lima climbing through 700 feet out of Madison, ready to recieve
IFR clearance.

ATC came back and said, 43 Lima, cleared to Covington LA as filed, climb to
5000, squawk 1234. I think, by me saying "ready to receive clearance",
triggered the response. I read back my response, ATC responded read back
correct and off I went into the white wild yonder. I wasn't about to enter
any clouds without hearing the CRAFT response.

I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.

snip

So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
altitude until I was given specific instructions?

I would suspect, until you hear "CRAFT" from ATC, you are still under VFR
rules.

Allen