Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

If the FMC has a programmed descent in its
route, do I let the FMC start the descent where it sees fit, or do I
force the aircraft to maintain FL290 until ATC explicitly clears me
for my own navigation or for a lower altitude?

It seems what you really want is to read the rules about clearances in
the AIM. The section on the altitude portion of a clearance is 4.4.3.d
and can be found at

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap4/aim0404.html


d. Altitude Data.

1. The altitude or flight level instructions in an ATC clearance
normally require that a pilot "MAINTAIN" the altitude or flight level at
which the flight will operate when in controlled airspace. Altitude or
flight level changes while en route should be requested prior to the
time the change is desired.

2. When possible, if the altitude assigned is different from the
altitude requested by the pilot, ATC will inform the pilot when to
expect climb or descent clearance or to request altitude change from
another facility. If this has not been received prior to crossing the
boundary of the ATC facility's area and assignment at a different
altitude is still desired, the pilot should reinitiate the request with
the next facility.

3. The term "cruise" may be used instead of "MAINTAIN" to assign a block
of airspace to a pilot from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including
the altitude specified in the cruise clearance. The pilot may level off
at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace.
Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the
pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports
leaving an altitude in the block, the pilot may not return to that
altitude without additional ATC clearance.

In a previous article, Mxsmanic said:
and FARs. These are the information sources that aspiring pilots use in
their pursuit of knowledge.

So what do you discuss on rec.aviation.ifr?

Corner cases - cases where the rules say one thing and common sense says
another, where the rules seem to contradict each other, or things that
weren't covered in normal IFR training. It's not here to act as a
person's CFI-I.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
Nazis are part of *every* government, everywhere, in all of human
history. They're just not always called that.
-- J.D. Baldwin

In a previous article, Mxsmanic said:
if so then ATC will tell you what altitude to be at.
Resume own navigation refers to routing not altitude.

Ah ... is there another phrase that also means altitude is at my
discretion, or is altitude always under the control of ATC? The fact
that the FMC provides for its own descent schedule implies that there
must be situations in IFR where I'm allowed to climb or descend at my
discretion (?).

If your FMC wants to descend, ask ATC for a descent. If you're going to
be descending with multiple segments of different descent rates, ask ATC
for "descent at pilots discretion".

Real world IFR flying is about coordinating your actions with those of all
the other planes out there, not flying along fat, dumb and happy doing
whatever you feel like. That's the whole point of ATC - to make sure you
don't hit what you can't see. ATC's second priority is to make sure the
system runs smoothly, so your actions don't interfere with somebody else
and somebody else's actions don't interfere with you.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"I love the smell of burning components in the morning.
Smells like victory." (The ******* Operator From Hell)

Paul Tomblin writes:

Corner cases - cases where the rules say one thing and common sense says
another, where the rules seem to contradict each other, or things that
weren't covered in normal IFR training. It's not here to act as a
person's CFI-I.

Are you the moderator?

--
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JD writes:

MS, don't let post like this bother you.

Not to worry; I am refractory to personal attacks.

ANY interest in aviation is good.

I agree.

Real pilots are in general one of the most POLITE bunch of people
you'd ever want to meet and hang out with.

Why are so many of the ones accessing USENET so rude, then? Or
perhaps they are not actually pilots (?).

A lot of GA pilots like to hang out at the local airports
and do nothing but "hanger flying", i.e. sit around and talk about
aviation (and other topics).

Is that anything like ... simulation?

Try it sometime, and join a local chapter of the EAA (experimental
aircraft association). You'll learn a lot more from talking to folks
than from reading posts like Mad's.

I live in Europe, so I don't really have those options. I try to read
things on paper and online, and I fly in simulation, and I fly in
network simulation (VATSIM) to practice ATC and to have some level of
unpredictability in the simulation.

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Thomas Borchert writes:

That fact implies that the simulation does not simulate real life
well in this respect.

What part of the FMC or ATC simulation is incorrect?

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Paul Tomblin writes:

If your FMC wants to descend, ask ATC for a descent. If you're going to
be descending with multiple segments of different descent rates, ask ATC
for "descent at pilots discretion".

OK, thanks. Is that the procedure followed by pilots in the real
world as well?

Real world IFR flying is about coordinating your actions with those of all
the other planes out there, not flying along fat, dumb and happy doing
whatever you feel like.

Yes. That's why I'm trying to find out what the rules are.

That's the whole point of ATC - to make sure you
don't hit what you can't see. ATC's second priority is to make sure the
system runs smoothly, so your actions don't interfere with somebody else
and somebody else's actions don't interfere with you.

Yes. I try to be cooperative with ATC.

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Thomas Borchert writes:

No, you don't.

I did so last night. Today, at least thus far, it was Chandler to
Sedona, and then back from Sedona to Phoenix.

For the sake of those reading here that haven't
discovered your background, please state clearly that you are playing
MS FS.

Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things
like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from
real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both. In
domains where I suspect there may be a discrepancy, I ask for
clarification, which is why I'm here.

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Pixel Dent writes:

3. The term "cruise" may be used instead of "MAINTAIN" to assign a block
of airspace to a pilot from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including
the altitude specified in the cruise clearance. The pilot may level off
at any intermediate altitude within this block of airspace.
Climb/descent within the block is to be made at the discretion of the
pilot. However, once the pilot starts descent and verbally reports
leaving an altitude in the block, the pilot may not return to that
altitude without additional ATC clearance.

I think I read this section before; this paragraph sounds familiar. I
always get instructions to "maintain," though. What's the phraseology
when I get a block of altitudes? Or does it even happen with
frequency in real life? How do I request it (or do I even need to
request it)?

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Mxsmanic,

Why are so many of the ones accessing USENET so rude, then?


You need to recalibrate your rudeness sensor to include yourself. It
will help. I guarantee.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)