IFR GNS 430 with expired database

Peter Clark wrote:
On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy"
wrote:


There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
really using the database.


What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

Yes.. you can.

If you can fly a plain ILS, LOC or VOR approach, you can use a 430
without a current database. You can still confirm cross radials and such
without an IFR GPS.

Dave

On Apr 16, 6:01 pm, Dave S wrote:
Peter Clark wrote:
On 16 Apr 2007 07:11:13 -0700, "paul kgyy"
wrote:

What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

Yes.. you can.

Indeed. The usual verbiage is

"IFR enroute and terminal navigation is prohibited unless the pilot
verifies the currency of the data base or verifies each selected
waypoint for accuracy by reference to current approved data."

NDB and DME substitution on non-GPS missed approaches is a terminal
operation.

There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
really using the database.

What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

It depends on the HP - often it's a return to the OM using a
backcourse, or a nearby VOR, or intersection of 2 VOR radials. None
of these requires the database. Even an NDB would work if you have
ADF on board.

"Dave S" wrote in message
k.net...
Jose wrote:
I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an
operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it
is placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even
without the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.

True?

Jose


You've been told wrong. You can still fly ILS, LOC and VOR approaches
without regard to the status of the GPS database. You can even use the out
of date database for situational awareness. You just cant file /G, since
you are not capable of legally accepting or executing an IFR GPS approach,
assuming that the out of date box is the sole source of IFR GPS
certification.


Dave

That's how I understand it, and how it is explained by Jeppesen. You
can't file /G with an expired database.

Al G

On Apr 17, 8:03 am, paul kgyy wrote:
There might be restrictions for GPS approaches, but I would think that
flying non-GPS approaches with the 430 should be fine since you're not
really using the database.

What about using it for locating missed approach holding points (a-la
NDB or DME substitution)? Since the database is out of date, you
can't use it for approaches, even non-GPS.

It depends on the HP - often it's a return to the OM using a
backcourse, or a nearby VOR, or intersection of 2 VOR radials. None
of these requires the database. Even an NDB would work if you have
ADF on board

From the Garmin manual: ( I have similar verbiage in my AFM
supplement. Yours could conceivably differ.)

"You may file your flightplan as /G if your GNS430 is a certified A1
(approach approved) or A2 (enroute and terminal only) installation. If
you are flying enroute, you may file /G with an expired database only
after you have verified all route waypoints. Non-precision approaches
may not be flown with an expired database. See your approved Airplane
Flight Manual for more information."

So to comment on an earlier point, you can still file /G, even with
an expired database, under the restrictions pointed out earlier. Note
you can file /G with a C129(A2) installation for which approaches are
never approved!

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
a current database.

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

I don't think anyone does,

Actually, somebody influential in our club does think this.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
t...
I have been told that it is illegal to fly IFR in an aircraft that has an
operating IFR rated GNS 430, whose database is out of date, =even= if it is
placarded INOP, placed in the OFF position, and the airplane, even without
the 430, is otherwise legal for IFR.

True?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


Jose, let me repeat what I have said many times: When you are told something
like this, ask for documentation. There are far too many pilots who are
willing to swallow a story whole without question, and far too many
instructors who simply pass on what they have been told by someone else.

Bob Gardner

On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Peter Clark
wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
a current database.

Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
box with a current database. However, if the *missed approach*
requires say, for you to navigate to an NDB for which you are
substituting GPS, that is a terminal operation which only requires
C129(A2) certification and can be flown with an expired database,
provided you have validated the NDB lat/lon.
Earlier in the thread you specified substituting GPS for the MAPH
HP. That is the second situation.

On 17 Apr 2007 14:10:21 -0700, wrote:

On Apr 17, 10:18 am, Peter Clark
wrote:
On 17 Apr 2007 09:04:53 -0700, wrote:

It's hard to imagine anyone thinking an expired GPS database would
prevent you from using the *other* navigational equipment in your
airplane - like an ADF or the independent VOR/ILS in the 430.

I don't think anyone does, except in the cases where you are required
to substitute because you don't have an ADF or DME and the precision
or VOR/DME style approach requires the GPS be used as a substitute for
ADF or DME. AIUI at that point you have to have the real equipment or
a current database.

Yes and no. To use the GPS to substitute for DME on a VOR-DME
approach is an approach operation. It requires a C129(A1) certified
box with a current database. However, if the *missed approach*
requires say, for you to navigate to an NDB for which you are
substituting GPS, that is a terminal operation which only requires
C129(A2) certification and can be flown with an expired database,
provided you have validated the NDB lat/lon.
Earlier in the thread you specified substituting GPS for the MAPH
HP. That is the second situation.

I don't have my supplements or manuals handy, but does that apply even
if the NDB blah is loaded as part of the approach procedure?