Any Spins Lately??

On Sep 3, 5:33 pm, "Viperdoc" wrote:
Yes, I do spins and other stuff all the time- there is nothing like going
out and flying acro on a nice summer day. Never, ever gets boring. I also
think it really helps get the feel of a plane. With any practice, there
really should never be anything like an inadvertent spin- the plane should
be telling you when you aren't doing something right prior to the stall. And
once it does stall,keeping the wings level with your feet should help
prevent spin entry.

It takes more than keeping the wings level, and even in coordinated
flight spins are possible. Spins can occur, for example, in a
coordinated climbing turn stall (outside wing goes first), from a
level skidding turn (inside wing goes first), from a level steep turn
(inside first), and from an abrupt pullup (depends which way whatever
yaw there might be).
That last one is known to kill the showoff: the guy who buzzes
the runway or a friend's house, then pulls up sharply to get the G
forces and the steep climb. The G forces mean an increased load
factor, and the stall speed goes way up. If there's any
miscoordination at all and the raised stall speed meets the actual
airspeed, a wing will drop viciously and the flight ends right there.
Bam. I'm appalled at the number of pilots who don't seem to be aware
of the aerodynamics here. Ignorance is no excuse. Physics pays no
attention to excuses.

Dan

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:03:52 -0700, Ol Shy & Bashful
wrote in
. com:

If you haven't done any spins lately, why not?

I agree with you about the need for spin training, but there are (at
least) a couple of issues.

1. It's not possible to cage the gyros in most training aircraft.

2. Many aircraft (PA28s come to mind) are not approved for
intentional spins.

Larry Dighera wrote:

I agree with you about the need for spin training, but there are (at
least) a couple of issues.

1. It's not possible to cage the gyros in most training aircraft.

2. Many aircraft (PA28s come to mind) are not approved for
intentional spins.

I spin my PA28 on a fairly regular basis. Not all of them have the spin
restriction. The short bodied, hershey bar winged 140s and 180s were
approved for spins in the Utility Category. The 140s remained spinnable
throughout the production run (ended in '77) and the 180s were good until the
fuselage was stretched in the '73 models. Caveat : some early models were
delivered with a large fresh air fan in the tail. These models were not
approved for intentional spins and are placarded as such.

As for the gyros, I've heard that spinning is bad for the gyros, but it
hasn't hurt mine. So far, I've been spinning the plane for 14 yrs. and have
yet to replace a gyro. They will usually tumble during the manuever, but
they re-erect and work normally within a few minutes.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:28:59 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
u32749@uwe wrote in 77bb4cf363fa1@uwe:

Larry Dighera wrote:

I agree with you about the need for spin training, but there are (at
least) a couple of issues.

1. It's not possible to cage the gyros in most training aircraft.

2. Many aircraft (PA28s come to mind) are not approved for
intentional spins.

I spin my PA28 on a fairly regular basis. Not all of them have the spin
restriction. The short bodied, hershey bar winged 140s and 180s were
approved for spins in the Utility Category. The 140s remained spinnable
throughout the production run (ended in '77) and the 180s were good until the
fuselage was stretched in the '73 models. Caveat : some early models were
delivered with a large fresh air fan in the tail. These models were not
approved for intentional spins and are placarded as such.

Thank you for that very complete information.

As for the gyros, I've heard that spinning is bad for the gyros, but it
hasn't hurt mine. So far, I've been spinning the plane for 14 yrs. and have
yet to replace a gyro. They will usually tumble during the manuever, but
they re-erect and work normally within a few minutes.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

What have you found to be the MTBF for your gyros?

Larry Dighera wrote:

What have you found to be the MTBF for your gyros?

As I said, the same gyros have been in the panel and working fine for 14
yrs. and I tend to average about 4 or 5 spins per month. When one of them
finally fails, I'll get back to you.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200709/1

You certainly have a proselytizing tone about the subject, yet for your
admonissions to be really valid you would have to show that the change
from spin training to spin awareness and avoidance has been accompanied
by an increase in stall/spin accidents and fatalities. In reality, the
opposite is true.



In article . com,
says...


If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a
good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you
into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you
know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane
you are flying?
Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a
death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to
avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl.
Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should
this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I
see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or
request some training or a flight review.
Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save
some lives in the process?
Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard
World Infamous pilot/Instructor

In a different thread here, someone made an apt allusion to a
high-performance driving course. Anyone may wish to take such a course in
the belief it will make them a more complete or more well-rounded driver,
and this uncompromising attitude toward one's self is deserving of
respect. It will not, however, make them less likely to have an accident
- probably the inverse. The secretary who gets nervous when she has to
parallel park is far less likely to have a serious accident. And if large
numbers of people started subscribing to such courses, it is likely the
roads would become more dangerous, because in *some* people this would
favor an overconfident attitude.

Compare this to single-engine recovery in light twins. All pilots have to
demonstrate proficiency when they know an engine failure is likely to
occur, and they have been practicing for it. In real-world incidents
however, we know that a large majority fail to apply their training
successfully in light twins, with marginal excess horsepower. This still
leaves some who do succeed, which makes the training pertinent - combine
this with the fact that avoidance is not practical (despite the best
measures, engine-out incidents will still occur without warning) and the
training clearly becomes indispensable.

What about partial-panel in IMC? I share your impatience with marginal
instructors when it comes to those who instruct IR, yet who are afraid in
IMC. They should be like a fish in water in hard IMC, even partial panel.
Here again, avoidance is not a satisfactory answer, as vacuum failures
will occur without warning, and only partial-panel training will bail you
out if you can't see out the window when it happens. Let's see though what
happens to IR training requirements as the vacuum systems become obsolete,
and the classic AI/DG failure becomes an anachronism.

Airbus writes:

[...] Compare this to single-engine recovery in light twins. [...]
In real-world incidents however, we know that a large majority fail
to apply their training successfully in light twins, with marginal
excess horsepower. [...]

How exactly do "we" know that?

- FChE

On Sep 4, 8:36 am, Airbus wrote:
You certainly have a proselytizing tone about the subject, yet for your
admonissions to be really valid you would have to show that the change
from spin training to spin awareness and avoidance has been accompanied
by an increase in stall/spin accidents and fatalities. In reality, the
opposite is true.

In article . com,
says...





If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a
good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you
into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you
know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane
you are flying?
Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a
death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to
avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl.
Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should
this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I
see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or
request some training or a flight review.
Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save
some lives in the process?
Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard
World Infamous pilot/Instructor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Airbus
On what do you base that statement "In reality, the opposite is
true." ? I'm basing my statement on what I've seen in 40 years as a
flight instructor.
Cheers
Ol S&B

On Sep 5, 5:52 am, Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
On Sep 4, 8:36 am, Airbus wrote:



You certainly have a proselytizing tone about the subject, yet for your
admonissions to be really valid you would have to show that the change
from spin training to spin awareness and avoidance has been accompanied
by an increase in stall/spin accidents and fatalities. In reality, the
opposite is true.

In article . com,
says...

If you haven't done any spins lately, why not? Have you ever gotten a
good spin checkout? Do you really understand what happens to get you
into a spin? Do you understand what is happening during a spin? Do you
know the proper technique for getting out of a spin in the airplane
you are flying?
Most importantly, do you realize a low altitude spin is virtually a
death sentence? A pilot who is properly trained in spins knows how to
avoid getting into them inadvertantly and especially below 1000'agl.
Every year pilots do a stall/spin accident and people die. Why should
this be? I'm really sick and tired of flight instructors who are
afraid of doing stalls and have NEVER done a spin because they are
afraid of them. How do you think that transfers to their students? I
see it when I do checkouts for pilots who are new to our operation or
request some training or a flight review.
Hopefully this will regenerate some discussion here and maybe save
some lives in the process?
Ol Shy & Bashful - Soaring Buzzard
World Infamous pilot/Instructor- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Airbus
On what do you base that statement "In reality, the opposite is
true." ? I'm basing my statement on what I've seen in 40 years as a
flight instructor.
Cheers
Ol S&B


The only reasion there aren't more stall/spin accidents
than many years ago, if there ARE fewer, is because the airplanes
built now are so forgiving. They are spin-resistant. Just try getting
a 172 into a decent spin. So now we have the equivalent of tricycles
instead of bicycles, just like we have anti-skid brakes and other
idiot-proofing stuff on our cars. The overall result is a pilot or
driver who thinks he is proficient because the machine never gets away
on him, while the reality is that some engineer was given the task of
designing a machine capable of babysitting him.
I believe many stall/spin accidents come about after a guy
gets his ticket in a newer design, then goes and buys an older
airplane like a Champ or Cessna 140 and promptly gets himself into
trouble. He didn't get any spin training while he was getting the
taildragger checkout. He wasn't shown what happens in a sloppy,
skidding base-to-final turn.

Dan