Stalls??

Because I was older than most of the instructors around Boeing Field (got my
CFI at age 40), the older pilots seemed to gravitate to me for recurrency
and BFR's. Pilots I taught, of whatever age, were no problem...it was
(usually) airplane owners, older almost by definition, who were skittish
about getting too slow and wouldn't even try. No signoffs for them, of
course, but there were lots of other CFIs on the field.

Bob

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Bob Gardner wrote:

I have dropped long-time friends like the proverbial hot potato when they
refused to explore the low end of the envelope for fear of
stalling....and these were licensed pilots, not students. You can't teach
someone whose mind is made up.


Is this really the case? I'm 45 and got my PPL in '79. Most of the other
pilots I fly with today are either a little older than I am or in most
cases WAY older than I am. I just don't have a lot of experience flying
with pilots that were trained after I was. An even though I was trained in
'79 the training I received would have been right at home in the early to
mid 60's.

My one recent experience was with a young CFI when I was getting a BFR and
this kid was scared of stalls. Hell, he damn near made me scared of them.

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
...
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B



I love slow flight...and fast flight...and steep turns...and going around...

My feeling is that folks who are wary of flying slow never really practiced it early in their piloting careers. Flight
training really does instill a fear of the dreaded stall/spin accident, so folks don't want to even get close to it. I
think folks should go up and fly right right on the ragged edge, turning and playing power up and down, until they are
comfortable with the handling of the plane. Takes a lot of leg work (read rudder!) to do successfully, and many are too
lazy to really work at it...

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message ...
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B


The reason for the fear is probably because it was taught as the final thing that can happen at low end of the
envelope. This was not always the case because people used to be trained that after the stall came the spin and how to
recover from that. Of course everyone knows that the spin comes after the stall but it is all theory and faith. Sort
of like the afterlife.



Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks
know how to handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know this will start the flames!)

Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right as the wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks
know how to handle the plane in a stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know this will start the flames!)-

That's a sweet ending, though -- flames or not -- especially when the
stall horn blows and the wheels just start turning.

Yeah baby!

On Feb 13, 2:53*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?
Its a loaded? question and comes from a 24,000+ hour pilot and active
instructor. I'd really like to see some active discussion on this
subject. I'm tired of seeing aircraft damaged by sloppy flying, and
even more tired of seeing people injured by same.
Got any comments?
Ol S&B

For me I was only ever uncomfortable with power on because of the
sudden drop out. It was simply an uncomfortable sensation and then
when I learned about uncoordinated flight and the potential for spins
I got even more nervous about it.

I practiced it till I stopped being nervous -- and stopped over
controlling pitch down. It would have been better to have asked my
instructor to have me do some spin recoveries. Got to make up for that
this spring.

Come to think of it, I need to go practice stalls.

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Why is it so many pilots are afraid of stalls? I see it over an over
when doing flight reviews and checks. Why are pilots so afraid of
flying in the low end of the speed envelope? Isn't that where the
nasty things can happen? Isn't that where a pilot should be
comfortable and competent?
What do you think?


Think about a stall in a typical light trainer. The controls get mushy, the
nose is usually unnaturally high and the stall horn typically rises in both
volume and pitch the closer you get. It's not by accident that horror film
soundtracks do essentially the same thing. Then there's the fear that the thing
will get away from you and snap into some sort of unrecoverable regime.

I think it's quite natural to be afraid of stalls. Now, how to change that?

Do them... lots of them. Remove the unusualness of the stall from your
experience bank. Make them commonplace. Then not only do you stop fearing
them, you come to easily recognize the way aircraft behave as they approach the
stall.

With this I think you have to include a bit of spin recovery training. If you
know that the worst the stall can do is put you into a ho-hum spin, easy to
recover, then what's left to worry about?

As an aside, I prefer the old stall warning light over the horn. I can
effectively ignore it so that I can more properly concentrate on how the
aircraft feels. YMMV.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Blueskies wrote:
Every flight in a light GA single should end in a full stall...right as the
wheels roll on to the runway...Unless folks know how to handle the plane in a
stall, they will not learn to land correctly (I know this will start the
flames!)


I had just started with a Part 135 cargo outfit and was doing the initial
training in a C-402. The check airman asked me for a stall. I gave him a
stall. I thought he and the other new hire were going to ****.

"Didn't you understand I wanted a stall? Give me another."

So I did. Just like before, the plane got pretty mushy and then it broke
cleanly. Once again, I thought they were going to ****. They were visibly
uncomfortable and I had no clue why.

Finally the check airman said, "When I ask for a stall, I expect you to recover
before it actually breaks."

"Well, why didn't you just say you wanted an 'approach to a stall'", I asked.
"What's the problem with doing a full stall in the 402?"

"We hever do full stalls in a twin", he said. The other guy agreed.

Well, you could have knocked me over with a feather. I was trained in the 402
originally by a retired USAF colonel and we always did full stalls in anything
he checked me out in... single or twin. He expected me to be familiar with the
stall characteristics of anything I flew, single or twin. Frankly, the 402
stalls just like a big C-172.... as long as you have the power equalized on both
sides. We did plenty of them.

Of course, no moron stalls a twin with asymetrical power. But otherwise it's
just another airplane.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

On Feb 13, 1:50*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

Your comment about not knowing the plane has me curious. In fact, most
of your post has me confused as regards stalls.
Cheers
Ol S&B

I'm mostly an inde CFI so I don't have the benefit of knowing the
planes I'm going to be instructing in. Although the Cessna & Piper
brands normally stall about the same, the higher performance singles
often have individual personalities. For instance I can jump in one
plane and do stalls that are very tame and jump into another with a
serial number only a few off and end up inverted (I know this from
experience ). So the first time you stall a customer's plane you
want to be very careful, especially if you are the first CFI that's
done a full stall in the plane since the last rigging.
I picked up a Mooney from a Mooney Service Center after some control
linkage work. They actually have test pilots fly their aircraft before
releasing them back to customers. I met with the test pilot because I
knew they did a lot of flap rigging and asked him how it stalled
afterwards. He said "Oh, I don't stall them, but it flew straight as I
dropped the flaps". He then put on the helmet and jumped on his crotch
rocket. Full stalls, to the point the nose pitches down, seems to be a
thing of the past in high performance planes now. Again, teaching at
the official prof courses, we are prohibited from doing them.

-Robert, CFII

On Feb 13, 5:14*pm, Bill Watson wrote:
Interesting question but I'm not sure that fear of stalls is necessarily
connected with sloppy flying and injuries.

Yea, when was the last time your typical 737 driver stalled a plane,
real or simulated?

-Robert

On Feb 13, 8:37*pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
wrote:

With this I think you have to include a bit of spin recovery training. *If you
know that the worst the stall can do is put you into a ho-hum spin, easy to
recover, then what's left to worry about?

I've given up even thinking about spinning students anymore. There
just aren't that many of the ancient planes that are actually
certified for spins anymore. I can't think of the last time I flew a
plane where spins were legal. Even the new 182, that looks like it
would spin great, is prohibited.

-Robert