interesting moment yesterday on final

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Fly a proper rectangular pattern and not a 10 mile long final.


Why does the length of final matter?


Because 10 miles is not a final, it's an approach.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Mark T. Dame" wrote in message
...

I didn't finish my thought:

If you are on a precision approach in those conditions, you will be at
least 2.5 miles out when you break out (on a steep glideslope). Normally
you will be more than 3 miles out. In either type of approach, you have
plenty of time circle to land if the pattern is full.


Nope. Remember, the ceiling is below the circling MDA.



So, if there is VFR traffic in the pattern, an arriving IFR plane has
time
to transition to VFR and join the pattern without disrupting the flow.
If
conditions are so bad that the arriving aircraft can't transition in
time,
then it's unlikely that the airport is VFR legal anyway.


Nope, VFR legal require just one mile visibility.


Again, so what's you point?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven P. McNicoll"

Where? I can't find a description of "final" anywhere in AC 90-66A. The
Pilot/Controller Glossary defines "final" as "commonly used to mean that
an
aircraft is on the final approach course or is aligned with a landing
area."


Paragraph 8e states the turn to base leg should commence 45 degrees from the
threshold, which requires final to be the approximately as long as the
downwind is from the runway.



No, it says maneuvering for and execution of the approach SHOULD
be completed so as not to disrupt the flow of arriving and departing
traffic. This is not the only inconsistency to be found between advisory
material and the FARs. Keep in mind that ACs are not regulatory while
the FARs are.

Where is AC 90-66 inconsistant with the FARs?

"Maxwell" wrote in message
m...
Aircraft flying a full pattern do have the right of way.

Reporting points should be done in miles at uncontrolled airports.

It seems a lot of people have differing views on the interpretation of this
scenario. Maybe they should change the wording, and ruling to state that an
a/c cannot announce that they are on finals, until they are at circuit
height. That would just about rule out straight ins, and at least if someone
does come in on a straight in approach, all the traffic already in the
pattern is at the same altitude, and will spot him easier, rather than
looking to a higher altitude for an a/c that may be hidden by sunglare or
cloud.
Just my 2 cents, from a non experienced student pilot.
Crash Lander
--
http://straightandlevel1973.spaces.live.com/
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

It is correct. AC 90-66 clairifys it very well, and 91.113 is not in
conflict.


What do you believe AC 90-66A clarifies?



Per AC 90-66. 7f . Position reports on CTAF should include distance and
direction from the airport.


It doesn't say reports should be given in miles, it says position reports on
the CTAF should include distance and direction from the airport. Announcing
position over a known fix provides distance and direction and is far more
reliable than an estimate of distance.



Yep! No conflict.


It's your position that "aircraft flying a full pattern do have the right of
way." FAR 91.113(g) states that aircraft on final have the right of way.
I'd call that conflict.



Correct. But an instrument "approach" is an approach, not an instrument
"final".


FAR 91.113 is found among the general flight rules, it does not distinguish
between VFR and IFR operations. Aircraft on final have the right-of-way, it
does not matter how they came to be on final.

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

AC 90-66A 7f. Yes, they are.


Yes they are what?

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Radios are not required at the vast majority of airports in the US. I can
assure you that VFR pilots fly uncontrolled fields without turning on a
radio every day, if they even have one. Right, wrong, good, bad or
indifferent, no one can assume all aircraft in an uncontrolled pattern are
even using a radio if they have it. Much less a chart that gives IFR
reporting points.


I don't need your assurances, I'm very much aware of the level of VFR flying
done without radios. The point is many pilots WITH radios substitute them
for a proper traffic scan.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

It is correct. AC 90-66 clairifys it very well, and 91.113 is not in
conflict.


What do you believe AC 90-66A clarifies?



That aircraft in the pattern have the right of way. You know, the part you
snipped.


Per AC 90-66. 7f . Position reports on CTAF should include distance and
direction from the airport.


It doesn't say reports should be given in miles, it says position reports
on
the CTAF should include distance and direction from the airport.
Announcing
position over a known fix provides distance and direction and is far more
reliable than an estimate of distance.


IFR fixes provide zero informaiton to a VFR pilot.




Yep! No conflict.


It's your position that "aircraft flying a full pattern do have the right
of way." FAR 91.113(g) states that aircraft on final have the right of
way. I'd call that conflict.


Only because you wish to ignore the FAA recommendations in AC 90-66.
Aircraft entering on a straight in approach should not disrupt traffic in
the pattern.



Correct. But an instrument "approach" is an approach, not an instrument
"final".


FAR 91.113 is found among the general flight rules, it does not
distinguish between VFR and IFR operations. Aircraft on final have the
right-of-way, it does not matter how they came to be on final.


AC 90-66 is crystal clear, you just don't happen to like it.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

AC 90-66A 7f. Yes, they are.


Yes they are what?


Already asked and answered.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Maxwell" wrote in message
...

Radios are not required at the vast majority of airports in the US. I can
assure you that VFR pilots fly uncontrolled fields without turning on a
radio every day, if they even have one. Right, wrong, good, bad or
indifferent, no one can assume all aircraft in an uncontrolled pattern
are
even using a radio if they have it. Much less a chart that gives IFR
reporting points.


I don't need your assurances, I'm very much aware of the level of VFR
flying done without radios. The point is many pilots WITH radios
substitute them for a proper traffic scan.



No, your question was do pilots fly without charts. Your just trolling
today.