Got burned - Don't go to Lansing Jet Center.

Jon Kraus wrote:

I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Did you discuss this with them at all? Seems to me they probably misplaced the
decimal point.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message .. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free.
I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor
3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get to
ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000 in
training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight school
and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be responsible
for all attorney costs + damages.

we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school but
they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
today from instructor with airplane update as promised
"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...
Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make
a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage
of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
free.
I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

I don't really see anything wrong with any of what you've described. Sure, I
would love to get stuff for free too but everyone has to run their business
to make money. The flight schools may have an interest in the future of
aviation but they are not there as a charity.

Regarding 1) Getting checked out in a different kind of airplane is usually
at your expense. Why shouldn't it be? Note that I said DIFFERENT. If the
school replaces it with the same kind, you shouldn't need a check out at
all. Either way, this isn't taking advantage of newbie pilots. It's
business. If you don't like their policies, go somewhere else. If enough
people pass on their services, they will go out of business or change their
policies.

Regarding 2) In your opening paragraph, you said that you were a student
pilot in search of a new school. Of course they are going to want to spend
some training time with you before signing you off for solo in one of their
planes. Anything else would be irresponsible. While the FAA doesn't care,
their insurance company probably does. They would want one of their
instructors to endorse your logbook again. I don't see this as a scam.

Regarding 3) If you are a student pilot, I would not rent you my airplane
without one of my instructors being with you. I don't know your instructor
either. Why should they? No scam. Just safe business practice.

Regarding 4) Sign you off for a check ride? What kind of a check ride? PP,
IA, Commercial? If you transition to a new instructor, of course he is going
to want to spend some time with you before signing you off. No CFI in their
right mind is going to sign you off based on your say so.

None of this sounds like a scam targeted at inexperienced pilots. It sounds
like reasonable business policies that you don't like. Similarly, your
proposed lawsuit is just what we do not need. Complain a little. See if you
can talk them into a free check out but please do the rest of paying pilots
(as opposed to getting paid) a favor and eat the extra cost to transition to
a new plane.

Travis


"MRQB" wrote in message
...
Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor
3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for
not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get
to
ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000
in
training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight
school
and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be
responsible
for all attorney costs + damages.

we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school
but
they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
today from instructor with airplane update as promised
"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...
Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw
that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would
have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people
at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to
make
a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you
deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take
advantage
of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option
would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to
spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to
visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful,
uneventful
hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of
icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday
dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating
of
ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
free.
I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

First, I've trimmed the subject line since the issue
with the complainee has been resolved.

Second, you seem to have an attitude problem. Flying
is expensive, so get used to it. Checking out in a
new plane is a great experience, not an excuse to
sue. Why did you want to learn to fly in the first place?

Thirdly, although you may think you're the hottest
student pilot around, others will need convincing. Every
time someone signs you off, they are putting their
own ticket - and possibly their business - on the line.
If that doesn't concern you, then realize they might
well be saving your own over-confident arse.

Frankly, I'd not risk my livelihood for some sue-happy
student pilot. You sound like an FBO's nightmare.

"MRQB" wrote in message
...

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor
3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor



--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

I, too, have had sue-happy students who have a room temperature IQ and a chip on
their shoulder. For one lesson. {;-)

Jim


"MRQB"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
-school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
-and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
-
-
-



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

In a previous article, "MRQB" said:
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

We're supposed to believe you're a doctor when your spelling and grammar
are worse than my 14 year old daughter when she's off her Ritalin?

Go away, you odious troll.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If I have to deal with another salesweasel, I shall scream, if only to
cover the sound caused by me ripping his head from his body to use the
carcass as a footstool. -- MC Langston

"MRQB" wrote in message ...
Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.

How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?

2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor

For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
certain number of hours with their instructor.

3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor

Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
to practice his trade?

4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.

This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
pass that checkride than you do?


I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get to
ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000 in
training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight school
and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be responsible
for all attorney costs + damages.

we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school but
they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
today from instructor with airplane update as promised

Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?

What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
fly with you. Why?

1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
don't need what I am teaching.

2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
deal with other traffic?

3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
me to fly with you.

Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
doesn't show you in a very positive light.

Cheers,

Cap





"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...
Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make
a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage
of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
free.
I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA