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#1
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Can someone here explain exactly what had to be closed or evacuated in
Southern California because of fires? The news talked about disruptions of air traffic throughout the Pacific Southwest and a major ATC center being put out of order, but no more detail that that. Which ATC center was it, and where is it physically located? Aren't ATC centers hardened or something so that they are relatively protected against natural and unnatural problems? Heck, I'd expect them to be built a lot like missile silos, so that they can continue to operate under just about any conditions. Can other centers take up the slack when this happens, or are certain types of traffic simply impossible to manage if a given center goes off the air? -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
#2
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![]() "Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Can someone here explain exactly what had to be closed or evacuated in Southern California because of fires? The news talked about disruptions of air traffic throughout the Pacific Southwest and a major ATC center being put out of order, but no more detail that that. Which ATC center was it, and where is it physically located? It isn't a center. It was the SoCal (SCT) Tracon. This description from their union site: SoCal TRACON, the busiest approach control in the world, provides radar air traffic approach control services to all arriving and departing aircraft for most airports in southern California. Airports receiving SCT services include Burbank Airport, John Wayne Airport, Los Angeles International Airport, Long Beach Airport, March AFB, Miramar MCAS, North Island NAS, Ontario Airport, San Diego International Airport, Van Nuys Airport and many more airports that service general aviation. SCT's airspace covers an area from 20 miles north of Burbank to the US/Mexican border and from San Bernardino to Santa Catalina Island. SCT is one of the FAA trends to merge together a bunch of approach controls which used to be located at the major airport towers. There were 5 merged together here. The other major ones I know about are in New York and the newly established one in DC. |
#3
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:54:00 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote in Message-Id: : Can someone here explain exactly what had to be closed or evacuated in Southern California because of fires? SoCal TRACON. The news talked about disruptions of air traffic throughout the Pacific Southwest and a major ATC center being put out of order, but no more detail that that. Which ATC center was it, and where is it physically located? SoCal TRACON is located adjacent to the Miramar Marine Corps Air Station: http://www.airnav.com/airport/KNKX Aren't ATC centers hardened or something so that they are relatively protected against natural and unnatural problems? Heck, I'd expect them to be built a lot like missile silos, so that they can continue to operate under just about any conditions. The building that houses SoCal TRACON is of conventional construction with a brick facade and drywall clad partitions. Can other centers take up the slack when this happens, or are certain types of traffic simply impossible to manage if a given center goes off the air? It is my understanding that Los Angeles Center is currently fulfilling the duties of SoCal TRACON at reduced traffic counts. |
#4
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Ron Natalie writes:
SCT is one of the FAA trends to merge together a bunch of approach controls which used to be located at the major airport towers. There were 5 merged together here. The other major ones I know about are in New York and the newly established one in DC. Maybe the FAA should revisit that policy. Single nodes of failure aren't always a good idea. I can understand it for ATC that is more or less evenly dispersed over a large region, but I don't see that it's such a good idea for ATC involving small areas like airports. Logically, you'd want the latter very near the airport. If the airport goes down, it doesn't matter if the ATC goes down--and if the airport is still operating, than the ATC will probably be operating, too. But if the two are very separated geographically, you end up with an airport area with no ATC, which is a bad thing. So who took over? Or did everything just stop? -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
#5
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Larry Dighera writes:
The building that houses SoCal TRACON is of conventional construction with a brick facade and drywall clad partitions. So security guards have people taking off their shoes at every airport in the U.S., while a single suicide bomber could knock out ATC for half the Southwest? Is the government really looking in the right places for vulnerabilities? -- Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. |
#6
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:56:54 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote in Message-Id: : Ron Natalie writes: SCT is one of the FAA trends to merge together a bunch of approach controls which used to be located at the major airport towers. There were 5 merged together here. The other major ones I know about are in New York and the newly established one in DC. Maybe the FAA should revisit that policy. Single nodes of failure aren't always a good idea. Agreed. Failure of a single decentralized facility impacts less airspace. I can understand it for ATC that is more or less evenly dispersed over a large region, but I don't see that it's such a good idea for ATC involving small areas like airports. SoCal TRACON only deals with approach and departure operations that occur over an the area encompassing Los Angeles, San Bernardino, Riverside, Orange, Imperial, and San Diego counties. Logically, you'd want the latter very near the airport. If the airport goes down, it doesn't matter if the ATC goes down--and if the airport is still operating, than the ATC will probably be operating, too. But if the two are very separated geographically, you end up with an airport area with no ATC, which is a bad thing. So who took over? Los Angeles Center is/was providing approach/departure control to LAX. Or did everything just stop? Nope. It just reduced operations to about half. |
#7
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:58:18 +0100, Mxsmanic
wrote in Message-Id: : Larry Dighera writes: The building that houses SoCal TRACON is of conventional construction with a brick facade and drywall clad partitions. So security guards have people taking off their shoes at every airport in the U.S., while a single suicide bomber could knock out ATC for half the Southwest? Doubtful. Visitors to SoCal TRACON must present their ID at the guard shack located some distance from the building proper. As demonstrated by the current evacuation of SoCal TRACON, "ATC for half of the southwest" is still in operation by other ATC facilities. Is the government really looking in the right places for vulnerabilities? I believe they are trying the to the best of their _ability_. :-) |
#8
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![]() "Mxsmanic" wrote in message Larry Dighera writes: The building that houses SoCal TRACON is of conventional construction with a brick facade and drywall clad partitions. So security guards have people taking off their shoes at every airport in the U.S., while a single suicide bomber could knock out ATC for half the Southwest? Is the government really looking in the right places for vulnerabilities? Different impact. Knocking down an airliner with a bomb will do as it is intended and kill all on board. Aside from killing the people in the TRACON, the cessation of air traffic control will not cause all the planes under its control to come crashing down or into each other. They will find a way to land VFR with a good chance of landing safely. Either that or deviate to another manned sector or center. Marco Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- ** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY ** ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
#9
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![]() "Marco Leon" mleon(at)optonline.net wrote in message ... Different impact. Knocking down an airliner with a bomb will do as it is intended and kill all on board. Aside from killing the people in the TRACON, the cessation of air traffic control will not cause all the planes under its control to come crashing down or into each other. They will find a way to land VFR with a good chance of landing safely. Either that or deviate to another manned sector or center. Didn't you see Die Hard 2? ;-) Actually, most of the Center's (and some of the non-tower based tracons) have pretty good security. You can't get anywhere near the buildings at ZDC. My favorite was that after the OKC bombings I think, they blocked off the parking spaces (a significant loss in parking) in front of the Leesburgh AFSS. Security, right. Someone might blow up the FSS. This would be a imperceptable blip in the nation's transportation infrastructure as the 800 lines all failed over to Altoona. The biggest threat these guys were in was that some stupid terrorist mistook them for ZDC down the street. (The local media tends to do so regularly). |
#10
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![]() "Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Ron Natalie writes: SCT is one of the FAA trends to merge together a bunch of approach controls which used to be located at the major airport towers. There were 5 merged together here. The other major ones I know about are in New York and the newly established one in DC. Maybe the FAA should revisit that policy. LOL, FAA is actively exploring ways to privatize the entire terminal system, cashier the airways technicians who maintain the NAS infrastructure, outsource the Flight Service Stations and shrink the 20 continental ARTCC's into 3 mega facilities to save money. They can't be bothered by little things like system redundancy, because it costs money. We need to run FAA just like Enron and MCI, because American Government should work *exactly* like any other "business". Afterall, we have to save every penny that we can. We can rebuild Iraq, bail out the airline industy via corporate welfare, and simulateneously give everyone that big tax cut if we just shave some more off of aviation safety services. Single nodes of failure aren't always a good idea. I can understand it for ATC that is more or less evenly dispersed over a large region, but I don't see that it's such a good idea for ATC involving small areas like airports. Logically, you'd want the latter very near the airport. If the airport goes down, it doesn't matter if the ATC goes down--and if the airport is still operating, than the ATC will probably be operating, too. But if the two are very separated geographically, you end up with an airport area with no ATC, which is a bad thing. So who took over? Or did everything just stop? Los Angeles ARTCC (ZLA) took over the airspace. There are contingency procedures for the emergency closings of every ATC facility in the NAS. These plans are pretty complicated. Basically, the ARTCC's own all of the airspace. They delegate chunks of Center airspace to the various Tracons and terminal facilities in order to expedite the handling of terminal operations. In a Letter of Agreement between SCT and ZLA, there is likely a contingency clause which spells out that ZLA retakes the airspace that they delegated to SCT. In so doing, ZLA uses Center ARSR radar, which forces an increase in the separation between aircraft from three miles to five miles. This is causing a massive traffic delay in the SCT airspace, but least the airspace isn't completely shut down. Chip, ZTL |
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