Freelance CFIs and plane rentals??

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message . net...
Not sure what you mean here. Who pays for the insurance. From what I saw
the rates for private pilot rentals for lessons was very comparable to the
local FBOs. (a little lower actually)

I am not talking about a person who has his own plane and rents it out once
in a while - rather a person with one more who owns them primarily as a
business proposition. So how is the individual owner's insurance more than
the FBO and how is that going to make it more expensive?

You just have the mimimum of 3 planes for new policies otherwise you
end up paying an unworkable amount for your insurance. If you have an
existing policy you can probably continue to renew it.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
If a CFI was really an independent contractor he could not be required to
perform any additional duties, could not be told how to do his job, could
not be required to use company planes, could not be forbidden to give flight
instruction on his own time or at other FBOs, etc. Some states require
anyone working as a contractor to have a license or otherwise register as a
business.

I'm pretty sure that isn't true. I work in the teleco industry and
about 25% of us (engineers) are contractors. You would never know the
difference just walking around the cubes. The contractors are still
told how to do their job just like employees. They are still required
to use the same equipment. They do not have to be ind. businesses (we
operate in almost every state and over 30 countries). They are still
forbidden from working for anyone else during their contract. The
company has 6 lawyers dedicated to preventing the state from
considering these guys as employees (there are some strange things
they do to maintain the difference).


-Robert

(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message . com...
(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message . com...
(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message . com...
Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
instruction without any restriction.

Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
instruction.

I've seen that too, but I don't see how they can make the distinction
between flight instruction and taking a passenger flying.

Its just not good relations to violate a policy of the FBO just
because you don't think you'll be caught. As pilots, we still live in
a pretty small community and word of pilots (especially CFIs) gets
around pretty fast, even in large towns. We've all heard stories of
the crazy CFIs in the area. You don't want to be bundled up with those
guys.

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message . net...
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
I don't know whether or not it will "work," but I know of students who rent
from a non-FBO. This person had a few C172s and rented them out at
competitive rates.

So how can FBOs afford it?


They have a minimum of 3 planes or they continue to renew an existing
policy.

My policy (AIG ) makes no distinction between who is PIC. It simply
says only a named insured can be "piloting" the plane. This means
there is no insurance if they think anyone else touched the controls.


I can have an unnamed pilot - but I assume you mean not being instructed.

No, just flying. You need to look at the "open warranty" clause in
your policy. It will state the requirements of the unnamed pilot. I
would be VERY surprised if it didn't say that the unnamed pilot didn't
have to at least hold a private. Usually they have to have close to
the same hours as the named pilots since that is what the policy price
is based on.

"C J Campbell" wrote
If a CFI was really an independent contractor he could not be required to
perform any additional duties, could not be told how to do his job, could
not be required to use company planes, could not be forbidden to give flight
instruction on his own time or at other FBOs, etc.

I am an independent contractor at an FBO. I don't get a W2 or 1099.
I meet all the above tests. The FBO does not pay me - I am
responsible for finding my own students, doing my own billing, etc.
The student pays the FBO for the aircraft, and pays me for instruction
in a completely separate transaction. I set my own rates. All
instructors there work on the same basis. There are operations that
do it right.

I estimate these comprise less than 5% of all FBO's.

The first time a 'contractor' CFI gets hurt on the job and files a workman's
compensation claim ...

It doesn't even require that. All it really takes is one disgruntled
fired flight instructor filing for unemployment. If the state labor
board decides he doesn't meet the definition of independent contractor
(and most don't), watch out. The argument that he knew what the deal
was up front doesn't fly - the reason labor law exists in the first
place is that the employer is understood to have much more power in
the situation than the employee.

Personally, I would love to see these laws enforced against FBO's. It
would lead to a much better business climate.

Michael

(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message . com...
(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message . com...
Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
instruction.

I've seen that too, but I don't see how they can make the distinction
between flight instruction and taking a passenger flying.

It might be difficult before the fact, but this would certainly come
out in an accident investigation. That could put the instructor in
some very hot water (financially speaking).

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

A lot of places that claim that their instructors are 'independent'
contractors are asking to get bitten by their state labor regulators. Some
states allow anyone who claims that they are a contractor to be treated as
one, but some others get downright nasty.


State labor regulators? I'd be a lot more concerned about the IRS.
A few years ago they started cracking down on employers who claimed
their employees were independent contractors, in order to avoid
payroll taxes. Some FBOs that I know of treat their instructors as
true independent contractors, while others have gone the employee
route. It depends on how the FBO is run.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Richard Hertz" wrote in message et...

I am not talking about a person who has his own plane and rents it out once
in a while - rather a person with one more who owns them primarily as a
business proposition. So how is the individual owner's insurance more than
the FBO and how is that going to make it more expensive?

In order to insure for flight instruction use (other than the owner/named insured)
generally triples the insurance cost. Doesn't make any difference if it only gets
rented once a week or in every two hour block all week long.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to you
for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance. The airplane
is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for rental.

Incorrect. It does not need a 100 hour to be rented.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...
The interesting thing about that Greg, is that is defies common sense by
changing a required safety inspection period based only upon whose name is
on the title - but then it is the FAA, right?

It doesn't have anything to do with who's name on the title. The rule says when
carrying passengers for hire or when the instructor provides the aircraft. If the
plane is rented without pilot, then it is neither of the above. Where in the rule or
the FAA interp that was posted here did you determine that the name on the title
had anything to do with it.