Standard rate turn in Boeing 757?

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel
rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80").

Actually, an aileron roll, Paul. I know his book, ghost written by
another, says barrel roll, but the tape shows it's an aileron roll.

Among non-fliers, all rolls are "barrel rolls," just as all loops
are
"loop-de-loops" and among Southerners, all Northerners are
"Damnyankees."

vince norris

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous
times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron rolls (23
continuous
ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707 prototype that day
over Lake
Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it was a barrel roll. He dove, he
climbed and he did a constant "speed" roll about a point which is
close to
the definition of a barrel roll as I can get without a book in front
of me.
An aileron roll is a roll about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft.
He
did not do a 360 roll around the longitudinal axis.

Regards,

JB

I almost hate to get into this one again, as the last time was quite
unpleasant! :-)
It was a barrel roll. The -80 needed positive g all the way around for
the oil scavenger pumps. Tex knew this and I discussed it with him many
times through the years. Also, the airplane, regardless of how high the
roll set would have been and regardless of the airspeed at entry for a
pure aileron roll , would not have had the energy available through the
roll axis to complete an aileron roll without split S'ing out the back
side. The result of a pure aileron input would have been a HUGE split S
with serious airspeed problems on the back side!.
Tex did the roll the only way the airplane could have been rolled. He
FLEW it all the way around the barrel, keeping positive g on the
airplane throughout the maneuver for the oil pumps and to avoid the
split s.
Tex flew the prototype through a 3 dimensional roll at positive g , and
that spells barrel roll.
All the best as usual,
Dudley

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
"Jim Baker" wrote

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron
rolls
(23 continuous ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707
prototype that day over Lake Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it
was a barrel roll. He dove, he climbed and he did a constant
"speed"
roll about a point which is close to the definition of a barrel roll
as I can get without a book in front of me. An aileron roll is a
roll
about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. He did not do a 360
roll
around the longitudinal axis.


Vince has it right. You must have missed last year's "barrel-roll
discussion", a portion of which is quoted from William Kershner's
book "The Flight Instructor's Manual". Do a newsgroup Google search
for barrel roll and you will find the entire debate between "Big John"
and myself.

"How-
You might use the following explanation, or develop your own:
(1) Make sure the area is clear, then pick a reference on
the horizon off the wing tip as in the wingover and lazy eight.
(2) Set the throttle to low cruise rpm and ease the nose over to pick-
up about 10 K more than used for the wingover or set up the
airspeed used for a loop, whichever is higher. Power adjustment
should not be necessary during the maneuver. You might have
some of your sharper trainees apply full power as the airplane
approaches inverted and then remind them to throttle back as the
airspeed picks up in the last part of the maneuver.
(3) Smoothly pull the nose up and start a coordinated climbing turn
(note that it will have to be at a much faster rate than was used
for the wingover) toward the reference point. (Assume that at
first
the roll will be to the left.)
(4) When the nose is 45° from the original heading, it should be at
its
highest pitch attitude and the left bank should be vertical.
(5) When the nose is at 90° from the original heading, you should be
looking directly at the reference point that was originally off
the
wing tipfrom a completely inverted position (momentarily).
(6) When the airplane heading is again 45° from the original, the bank
is vertical but you will be in a right bank as far as the ground
is
concerned; that is, the right wing is pointing straight down at
this
instant of roll. The nose will be at its lowest pitch attitude at
this point.
(7) The roll is continued to wings-level flight as the nose is raised
back to the cruise attitude."

Note that half-way through the maneuver, the nose of the airplane
is 90 degrees to original heading at the same time that the airplane
is inverted.

Bob Moore


This is simply the "classic" method of teaching a barrel roll. A barrel
roll is simply a 3 dimensional maneuver, and in fact in air combat
maneuvering, is the ONLY 3 dimensional maneuver through 3 dimensional
space. The roll can be performed as written by you and Kershner here, or
it can be flown much tighter. Any roll that is FLOWN through
3 dimensions while maintaining a positive g on the airplane is a barrel
roll. The "barrel" can also be altered while in the roll by changing the
load on the airplane.In fact, in one offshoot scenario in the ACM arena,
we often began a barrel roll with positive g, then unloaded the airplane
to just below ballistic in the roll. (speeds up the roll rate :-)
Tex's roll was absolutely a barrel roll.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel
rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80").

Actually, an aileron roll, Paul. I know his book, ghost written by
another, says barrel roll, but the tape shows it's an aileron roll.

Among non-fliers, all rolls are "barrel rolls," just as all loops
are
"loop-de-loops" and among Southerners, all Northerners are
"Damnyankees."

vince norris

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous
times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron rolls (23
continuous
ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707 prototype that day
over Lake
Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it was a barrel roll. He dove, he
climbed and he did a constant "speed" roll about a point which is
close to
the definition of a barrel roll as I can get without a book in front
of me.
An aileron roll is a roll about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft.
He
did not do a 360 roll around the longitudinal axis.

Regards,

JB

I almost hate to get into this one again, as the last time was quite
unpleasant! :-)
It was a barrel roll. The -80 needed positive g all the way around for
the oil scavenger pumps. Tex knew this and I discussed it with him many
times through the years. Also, the airplane, regardless of how high the
roll set would have been and regardless of the airspeed at entry for a
pure aileron roll , would not have had the energy available through the
roll axis to complete an aileron roll without split S'ing out the back
side. The result of a pure aileron input would have been a HUGE split S
with serious airspeed problems on the back side!.
Tex did the roll the only way the airplane could have been rolled. He
FLEW it all the way around the barrel, keeping positive g on the
airplane throughout the maneuver for the oil pumps and to avoid the
split s.
Tex flew the prototype through a 3 dimensional roll at positive g , and
that spells barrel roll.
All the best as usual,
Dudley

I must have missed last years blood bath, :-))

I don't know how anyone looking at that tape, who has done the manuevers
we're speaking of, could confuse one with the other. As you've said Dudley,
the -80 (which I had the pleasure of seeing up close on Mothers Day weekend)
did not have the roll authority to do an aileron roll. Those little tiny
ailerons couldn't provide enough asymetic energy. Half way through the crew
would have been looking straight down at Lake WASHINGTON (thanks Pete!).
Now maybe that would have been more impressive, but it would've taken one
hell of an altitude to start and the folks on the ground might not have been
able to even see the entry. I've "aileron" rolled a large aircraft (
250,000 lbs) a few times but it didn't depend on ailerons for the manuever.
The B-1B used a split stab for primary roll authority and that was one huge,
split "aileron" that provided enough energy to roll the aircraft without the
Split S and the problems that would bring to a large airframe.

Have a pleasant weekend fellas!!

Stepping off the battlefied,

Jim

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?)
barrel
rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80").

Actually, an aileron roll, Paul. I know his book, ghost
written by
another, says barrel roll, but the tape shows it's an aileron
roll.

Among non-fliers, all rolls are "barrel rolls," just as all
loops
are
"loop-de-loops" and among Southerners, all Northerners are
"Damnyankees."

vince norris

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that
tape
numerous
times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron rolls (23
continuous
ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707 prototype that day
over Lake
Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it was a barrel roll. He
dove, he
climbed and he did a constant "speed" roll about a point which is
close to
the definition of a barrel roll as I can get without a book in
front
of me.
An aileron roll is a roll about the longitudinal axis of the
aircraft.
He
did not do a 360 roll around the longitudinal axis.

Regards,

JB

I almost hate to get into this one again, as the last time was quite
unpleasant! :-)
It was a barrel roll. The -80 needed positive g all the way around
for
the oil scavenger pumps. Tex knew this and I discussed it with him
many
times through the years. Also, the airplane, regardless of how high
the
roll set would have been and regardless of the airspeed at entry for
a
pure aileron roll , would not have had the energy available through
the
roll axis to complete an aileron roll without split S'ing out the
back
side. The result of a pure aileron input would have been a HUGE
split S
with serious airspeed problems on the back side!.
Tex did the roll the only way the airplane could have been rolled.
He
FLEW it all the way around the barrel, keeping positive g on the
airplane throughout the maneuver for the oil pumps and to avoid the
split s.
Tex flew the prototype through a 3 dimensional roll at positive g ,
and
that spells barrel roll.
All the best as usual,
Dudley

I must have missed last years blood bath, :-))

I don't know how anyone looking at that tape, who has done the
manuevers
we're speaking of, could confuse one with the other. As you've said
Dudley,
the -80 (which I had the pleasure of seeing up close on Mothers Day
weekend)
did not have the roll authority to do an aileron roll. Those little
tiny
ailerons couldn't provide enough asymetic energy. Half way through
the crew
would have been looking straight down at Lake WASHINGTON (thanks
Pete!).
Now maybe that would have been more impressive, but it would've taken
one
hell of an altitude to start and the folks on the ground might not
have been
able to even see the entry. I've "aileron" rolled a large aircraft (
250,000 lbs) a few times but it didn't depend on ailerons for the
manuever.
The B-1B used a split stab for primary roll authority and that was one
huge,
split "aileron" that provided enough energy to roll the aircraft
without the
Split S and the problems that would bring to a large airframe.

Have a pleasant weekend fellas!!

Stepping off the battlefied,

Jim

Biggest thing I ever barreled was a twin Beech. The B1 had to be a
handful!!
Watched a buddy of mine in the RAF barrel a Vulcan once. Beautiful!! You
should have seen that bat winged SOB going around. His nose had to be
sixty degrees as he initiated.

Last word I got from the Blues was that the boss had to come out to the
ramp every morning and tell the Fat Albert crew, "You will NOT roll this
airplane today gentlemen. I don't give a **** HOW much money the diamond
has paid you to try it" :-))))
Dudley

John Gaquin wrote,

If you're initiating an emergency descent on a passenger flight, the pax
would likely already be screaming, what with the fog and dangling masks.
Probably wouldn't even notice the roll. :-)

John, did you ever get to do one for real?

"Jerry Kurata" wrote in message
...
Unless they look out the window the passengers won't even notice the
manuver. Done correctly, the G's stay at 1 and the wine does not spill.

Not possible to miss the roll unless you are asleep. Sit there with your
eyes closed and you have no problem telling which way the plane is rolling.

"Jon Woellhaf" wrote in message news:Ayqwc.7120

John, did you ever get to do one for real?

Nope. From intro flight to 747, I never had a catastrophic failure of any
kind. I'd love to think skill and professionalism had something to do with
it, but nobody would buy that song -- particularly the guy in the mirror.
Just pure good luck. :-) Had a few system failures, and a few
precautionary landings, but nothing officially an emergency. How dull.

While +1 G = +1 G, nobody said to limit to 1G. A level turn at 60 degrees
of bank requires a constant +2 G. Bank in excess of 60 degrees requires
more G to maintain level flight. As Paul indicated, if the wings will stay
on and you don't care if the plane is flyable afterwards you can make pretty
exciting turns. The rate of turn for any given bank angle in level flight
(coordinated) is dependant on your TAS. In the Hustler, at mach 2, any
autopilot turn, using the navigator's input for bomb run heading, used 60
degrees of bank. At 1,200 plus TAS even 60 degrees of bank doesn't turn you
real fast. With anything less than 60 degrees of bank a misaligned target
could displace faster than you could turn.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"EDR" wrote in message
...
In article , Paul Tomblin
wrote:

As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80"). If you don't care if the plane is
usable again after the maneuver, I'm sure you could do a lot more abrupt
maneuvers than that.

Not necessarily... +1-G is +1-G.
The airplane doesn't know what attitude it's in as long as the proper
g-loading is maintained throughout the maneuver. The only variable is
the pilot's level of skill.

And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold the point while
inverted. A little tough with an air carrier machine.

--

B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-
I don't know how anyone looking at that tape, who has done the manuevers
we're speaking of, could confuse one with the other. As you've said
Dudley,
the -80 (which I had the pleasure of seeing up close on Mothers Day
weekend)
did not have the roll authority to do an aileron roll. Those little tiny
ailerons couldn't provide enough asymetic energy. Half way through the
crew
would have been looking straight down at Lake WASHINGTON (thanks Pete!).
Now maybe that would have been more impressive, but it would've taken one
hell of an altitude to start and the folks on the ground might not have
been
able to even see the entry. I've "aileron" rolled a large aircraft (
250,000 lbs) a few times but it didn't depend on ailerons for the
manuever.
The B-1B used a split stab for primary roll authority and that was one
huge,
split "aileron" that provided enough energy to roll the aircraft without
the
Split S and the problems that would bring to a large airframe.

Have a pleasant weekend fellas!!

Stepping off the battlefied,

Jim

"Darrell" wrote
And in a true aileron roll you pull one negative G to hold
the point while inverted.

Darrell, how come you Air Force guys define rolls differently
than everyone else?



http://acro.harvard.edu/ACRO/acro_figures.html#rolls
Aileron rolls are flown with the rudder and elevator in
the neutral position during the roll. The aileron is
fully deflected in the direction of the roll. This is the
easiest of the rolls to fly.
The aileron roll is started by pulling the nose up to 20 - 30
degrees above the horizon. The elevator is then neutralized
and the aileron fully deflected in the direction of the roll.
The controls are maintained in that position till the roll is
completed. After the roll is completed the nose is usually
20 - 30 degrees below the horizon.
Slow rolls have to be flown normally on a straight line. The
roll rate has to be constant and the longitudinal axis of the
plane has to go straight.
This requires constantly changing rudder and elevator control
inputs throughout the roll. Hesitation or point rolls include
stops at certain roll angles.
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sunrise-aviation.com/Ailroll.html
As the name implies, the aileron roll is done with "normal"
inputs of aileron and rudder (in contrast to snap rolls).
At the point this maneuver is introduced to students in the
Sunrise Basic syllabus, no attempt is made to maintain altitude
during the roll. The result is a steady transition from climb
to descent until the aircraft regains upright flight. This
simplified approach to rolling is ideal for beginning aerobatic
pilots.
A further development of basic rolling technique introduces
forward elevator (and negative G) to eliminate altitude loss
while inverted. The result is a Slow Roll, introduced in the
Sunrise Intermediate syllabus. Once mastered, slow rolls
completely replace aileron rolls in the repertoires of most
pilots.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore