Solid State Backup AI

I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).
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On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 08:16:01 -0500, Dan Truesdell
wrote:

I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).

If it is for backup and you keep the orginal AI in the plane, and you
have a cooperative mechanic and FSDO, you might be able to pull it
off. I'd make a few phone calls and get everything lined up before
you buy the equipment.

BTW, what panel mount solid state AI is available? Besides the 40k
G1000 and Entegra stacks?

-Nathan

There was an article about this in a recent AviationConsumer
(www.aviationconsumer.com).

Regarding the portable units, the gist is that they're capable enough if
you're in a bind. In fact, even something like a Garmin 196 would probably
get you out of trouble (at $999 though, you won't save any money here).
Depending on the flying you do, they also recommend keeping a spare pump
around (they estimate $300), otherwise if you're away from home you'll
either be going home VFR or paying some unknown shop to replace your pump.

Regarding a 337, it seems to depend heavily on your FSDO. Which company
offers a panel mount option?

blue skies,
mark

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...
I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).
--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

PCFlightSystems (eGyro-3).

Dan

Mark Astley wrote:
There was an article about this in a recent AviationConsumer
(www.aviationconsumer.com).

Regarding the portable units, the gist is that they're capable enough if
you're in a bind. In fact, even something like a Garmin 196 would probably
get you out of trouble (at $999 though, you won't save any money here).
Depending on the flying you do, they also recommend keeping a spare pump
around (they estimate $300), otherwise if you're away from home you'll
either be going home VFR or paying some unknown shop to replace your pump.

Regarding a 337, it seems to depend heavily on your FSDO. Which company
offers a panel mount option?

blue skies,
mark

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...

I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).
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Thanks. Just checked out the aviation consumer article. Great
information. I have a call into the local FSDO. We'll see what they
say about the panel-mounted unit (e-Gyro-3). I do seem to recall
someone in the mid-west that tried to put one in with no luck. Maybe
the people in Maine will be a bit more helpful.

Mark Astley wrote:
There was an article about this in a recent AviationConsumer
(www.aviationconsumer.com).

Regarding the portable units, the gist is that they're capable enough if
you're in a bind. In fact, even something like a Garmin 196 would probably
get you out of trouble (at $999 though, you won't save any money here).
Depending on the flying you do, they also recommend keeping a spare pump
around (they estimate $300), otherwise if you're away from home you'll
either be going home VFR or paying some unknown shop to replace your pump.

Regarding a 337, it seems to depend heavily on your FSDO. Which company
offers a panel mount option?

blue skies,
mark

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...

I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).
--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.






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PCFlight Systems sizes their portable unit to fit into a standard 3"
instrument hole (wink, wink). I was told the odds of getting a 337 for the
thing were about zero. I asked PCFlight Systems if they had any plans to
invest the $50 - $100K it would take to get an STC and they just laughed.

Ah, the FAA, busy enshrining mediocrity.

Tell you what, if 100 people on here each chip in $1000 I'll put the money
into an escrow account, get the 337 and then sell you a unit at cost. Think
of it, you'll own 1/100th of an avionics company!

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...
Thanks. Just checked out the aviation consumer article. Great
information. I have a call into the local FSDO. We'll see what they
say about the panel-mounted unit (e-Gyro-3). I do seem to recall
someone in the mid-west that tried to put one in with no luck. Maybe
the people in Maine will be a bit more helpful.

Mark Astley wrote:
There was an article about this in a recent AviationConsumer
(www.aviationconsumer.com).

Regarding the portable units, the gist is that they're capable enough if
you're in a bind. In fact, even something like a Garmin 196 would
probably
get you out of trouble (at $999 though, you won't save any money here).
Depending on the flying you do, they also recommend keeping a spare pump
around (they estimate $300), otherwise if you're away from home you'll
either be going home VFR or paying some unknown shop to replace your
pump.

Regarding a 337, it seems to depend heavily on your FSDO. Which company
offers a panel mount option?

blue skies,
mark

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...

I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).
--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.






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I had an interesting conversation with out local FSDO today. He
basically reported the FAA party line that anything that is "physically
attached" to a production aircraft must have an STC/337/what-ever to be
legal. (I guess in the event that someone uses your plane and gets into
trouble using the "unapproved" device, the FAA could be held
accountable?) Anyway, he (in so many words) seemed to agree that it's
odd that, while I can't put the eGyro3 into the plane, I can (and
probably will) purchase the PCEFIS "portable" unit and use it as a
backup. (Maybe they trust velcro more than actual bolts.) The aviation
consumer article had an interesting take, however, on the role of the
backup pump. From what I understand, if I install an electric pump and
a regular vacuum backup AI. If either the regular pump or the AI bites
the dust, I can still legally fly, even IFR with the backup system.
Interesting point. But my main goal was to give myself some redundancy.

McGregor wrote:
PCFlight Systems sizes their portable unit to fit into a standard 3"
instrument hole (wink, wink). I was told the odds of getting a 337 for the
thing were about zero. I asked PCFlight Systems if they had any plans to
invest the $50 - $100K it would take to get an STC and they just laughed.

Ah, the FAA, busy enshrining mediocrity.

Tell you what, if 100 people on here each chip in $1000 I'll put the money
into an escrow account, get the 337 and then sell you a unit at cost. Think
of it, you'll own 1/100th of an avionics company!

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...

Thanks. Just checked out the aviation consumer article. Great
information. I have a call into the local FSDO. We'll see what they
say about the panel-mounted unit (e-Gyro-3). I do seem to recall
someone in the mid-west that tried to put one in with no luck. Maybe
the people in Maine will be a bit more helpful.

Mark Astley wrote:

There was an article about this in a recent AviationConsumer
(www.aviationconsumer.com).

Regarding the portable units, the gist is that they're capable enough if
you're in a bind. In fact, even something like a Garmin 196 would

probably

get you out of trouble (at $999 though, you won't save any money here).
Depending on the flying you do, they also recommend keeping a spare pump
around (they estimate $300), otherwise if you're away from home you'll
either be going home VFR or paying some unknown shop to replace your

pump.

Regarding a 337, it seems to depend heavily on your FSDO. Which company
offers a panel mount option?

blue skies,
mark

"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message
...


I'm part owner of a IFR 172E. Nice equipment, but no vacuum redundancy.
I know I can add a dual-rotor vacuum pump or a manifold-driven
alternate vacuum source, but I'd rather have an electric backup (in case
of engine failure). Electric pumps add weight and good backup electric
AI's are expensive. Does anyone have any experience installing/using
the new solid state gyros? I have an iPaq and handheld GPS, so the
"portable" units would be OK. One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).
--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.





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"Dan Truesdell" wrote in message ...
I had an interesting conversation with out local FSDO today. He
basically reported the FAA party line that anything that is "physically
attached" to a production aircraft must have an STC/337/what-ever to be
legal.

This argument is not supported by the regulation (depending on what you
mean by "what-ever"). A 337 is filed persuant to major modification.
The rule defining major modification doesn't say "anything attacdhed to
an aircraft." This is a figment of the FAA field organizaiton.

Dan Truesdell wrote in
:

Thanks. Just checked out the aviation consumer article. Great
information. I have a call into the local FSDO. We'll see what they
say about the panel-mounted unit (e-Gyro-3). I do seem to recall
someone in the mid-west that tried to put one in with no luck. Maybe
the people in Maine will be a bit more helpful.

A lot will depend upon how you describe this thing. It is **not** a backup
AI, nor is it a redundant AI, or is it even an aviation product. It is a
small electronic device, which you wish to panel mount and connect to the
ship's power. This device will be adequately fused and tested in VFR/VMC
by the pilot/operator prior to operation IFR, and verified not to interfere
with onboard avionics.

Remember, in an EMERGENCY it suddenly doesn't matter if it's an AI or a
tuna sandwich, it's legal to use.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

Dan Truesdell wrote:
One of the manufacturers has a panel
mounted unit, but apparently it can't go into a production plane. What
are the chances of getting a 337 for that if it is for backup only? I
can do partial panel, but I'd rather have the most capability that I can
get (within reasonable expense).



By installing uncertified equipment as an emergency backup, you are
essentially becoming a test pilot. How will this unit handle turbulence,
temperature and pressure changes, static charges, nearby lightning? Will
it produce emmissions that may interfere with your other radios or
navigation equipment? How much training will be required to stay
proficient in it's use? My guess is at least as much as partial panel
using a plain old turn coordinator, probably more if it is mounted outside
your normal insturment scan area. IMHO, this would not be a safety gain,
and the money would be better spent on traditional partial panel practice.


Ross Oliver