Water in our oil, or just alot of hot air?

Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that
situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I
could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

#1 has been circulating for years in motorcycle banter. I've seen for myself that folks who only take short trips on their bikes get white dipsticks, from all the moisture in their oil.



-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

Chris Wells wrote:

#1 has been circulating for years in motorcycle banter. I've seen for
myself that folks who only take short trips on their bikes get white
dipsticks, from all the moisture in their oil.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by
the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

--
Chris Wells

Seen the same on VWs when they only get short ground runs.

The small oil quanity probably exagerates the problem, but it's there
in all reciprocating engines.

As to the hot air aspect, what's in the cylinder after shut down?

If you pull the mixture, the cylinders are cleared with a few blades
of clean (?) air before the prop stops.

Turning off the switch, however, leaves some fuel in the chamber.
One of them is probably under pressure too.

$.02

On 23 Apr 2006 02:18:53 -0700, wrote:

Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that

Get a good engine block and cylinder head heater. Wrap up the entire
cowl with plenty of good thermal blankets and use an engine heater to
keep the oil dry.

situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I

Again we disagree. If I don't use the engine heater the oil will be
almost milky within the first five hours. Using the heater it's still
clear to around the 20 hour mark. OTOH my engine has no oil filter so
the oil changes come at 25 hours. In 25 hours the oil doesn't go down
enough to hardly see on the dip stick, so it's using less than a pint
in 25 hours and is almost at TBO. BTW it has a wet vacuum pump.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:43:26 -0400, Roger
wrote:

On 23 Apr 2006 02:18:53 -0700, wrote:

Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that

Get a good engine block and cylinder head heater. Wrap up the entire
cowl with plenty of good thermal blankets and use an engine heater to
keep the oil dry.

I should add that keeping the heater on all the time comes with some
caveats. One being the whole engine has to get hot and in most
climates where it's necessary to preheat the engine that means
thoroughly wrapping up the front of the airplane from the firewall
forward. The blankets I've cut go half way up the windshield and
behind the cowl flaps.

Some one asked about this and I can't find the post.

I regularly check the engine by pulling the dip stick. If things
aren't hot enough there will be moisture condensing under the top of
the dipstick or oil filler cap.

Everything on the engine gets hot enough that it's uncomfortable to
put your hand on it. You can do so without getting burned, but if you
are not expecting it, you will jerk your hand back away from the
cylinders. Based on that I'd guess the temp is pretty close to 50C or
about 122F (if I did the math right) That's not 180, but it's not
getting combustion products put in at the same time either.

Another caveat is; don't leave the thing set for more than a couple of
weeks. The engine is hot enough the "cling" will quit clinging.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I

Again we disagree. If I don't use the engine heater the oil will be
almost milky within the first five hours. Using the heater it's still
clear to around the 20 hour mark. OTOH my engine has no oil filter so
the oil changes come at 25 hours. In 25 hours the oil doesn't go down
enough to hardly see on the dip stick, so it's using less than a pint
in 25 hours and is almost at TBO. BTW it has a wet vacuum pump.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

I should add that keeping the heater on all the time comes with some
caveats. One being the whole engine has to get hot and in most
climates where it's necessary to preheat the engine that means
thoroughly wrapping up the front of the airplane from the firewall
forward. The blankets I've cut go half way up the windshield and
behind the cowl flaps.

The problem with keeping an engine too warm all the time:
degraded rubber hoses, seals and gaskets. Rubber parts lose their
lighter elements faster when hot and get hard; they shrink, crack and
leak. They'll do it over time too, of course, but heat accelerates it.
The same thing applies to aircraft interiors and radios when subjected
to the heat of the sun.
Nothing lasts forever. We don't want to think about that
sometimes. Your airplane is aging whether it's flying or not, and you
can only slow it as much as practicable. I would be more inclined to
use dessicant plugs (with "Remove Before Flight" flags attached) on the
engine breather, exhaust and intake. Cheaper than heating and easier on
rubber.

Dan

wrote:
Ernest,

I agree with alot of what you said. The point of my OP was not to
challenge what the best care of the engine is. I think we all agree
that flying it an hour a week is what is called for, along with regular
oil changes. What I has me concerned is that many times during the
winter, it is difficult if not impossible to do this. In that
situation, I think it is better to warm up the engine than just let it
sit. The cam and lifter on Lycomings will tolerate no rust at all. Once
you have even a small rust pit in the lifting face of the cam or lifter
I'm afraid you are looking at a tear down in the not too distant
future. Literally beats them to death in short order. And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said. I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.
I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up. I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine. I
could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either. Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate. I think this is
nonsense. The oil in a running engine is literally blown and slung
around like a hurricane. It doesn't just sit at the bottom of the sump.
And the volume of oil pumped is huge. 90 psi will do that. I think that
there probably are pockets within the engine that trap water. The front
of the hollow crank comes to mind, but I don't think they ever get
purged of their water, even after hours of operation.

Blue skies,
Rusty

You don't really need to fly it once a week. Once a month will do as
long as it gets an hour or so. I bought a '68 Cardinal in '89 that had
never even had a cylinder removed since new (original unbroken Lycoming
duck egg blue paint at the cylinder bases). I went back through the
logs and found that while it only had 1100 hours in 21 years, it had
never gone more than a 40 day period without flying in all that time.

I sold it to a guy in '93 who still owns it, keeps it outside and it
STILL have never even had a cylinder removed. He only puts about 20 or
30 hours a year on it but makes sure it never sits more than a month.

The vast majority of private aircraft that need tops after 1000 hrs
often go 3 to 6 months at a time without flying.

John

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:45:06 -0400, "J.Kahn"
wrote:



You don't really need to fly it once a week. Once a month will do as
long as it gets an hour or so.

an hour or two *after* the engine temperature is at the normal running
temp range will see it right.

white oil? fill it up with avgas and fly out the tank in one
uninterrupted flight and it should be black again.

my aircraft occasionally sits for longer than I want and I find on a
long cross country that by the end of the second day's flying it is
running like a well oiled sewing machine again. flying for shorter
periods never seems to get the sewing machine effect where it runs
noticeably sweeter.

Stealth Pilot

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:25:08 +0800, Stealth Pilot
wrote:

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:45:06 -0400, "J.Kahn"
wrote:



You don't really need to fly it once a week. Once a month will do as
long as it gets an hour or so.

an hour or two *after* the engine temperature is at the normal running
temp range will see it right.

white oil? fill it up with avgas and fly out the tank in one
uninterrupted flight and it should be black again.

An hours flight will remove the water and I already use 100LL.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


my aircraft occasionally sits for longer than I want and I find on a
long cross country that by the end of the second day's flying it is
running like a well oiled sewing machine again. flying for shorter
periods never seems to get the sewing machine effect where it runs
noticeably sweeter.

Stealth Pilot

And like I said,
my oil analysis results show no water at all, zero. As for the engine
making water, of course it does, and it goes right out the exhaust as
you said.

Most of it goes out the exhaust. Some of it squeezes past the rings,
since everything is still cool and the gaps are larger, and it
condenses in the crankcase. It does it to a lesser degree once it's
warmed up.

I don't think the engine stays very cold for any length of
time once running. Those babies get hot, and quick, even in the winter.

Only if your idea of winter is around 40 F. Many of us live in
climates that get much colder than that. We have airplanes here that
never see over 150 F on the oil temp in winter, and seldom more than
300 on the CHT.

I doubt if they collect much if any water during start up.

I've taken the rocker covers off a brand-new engine after it's been ground run for five minutes, and they're full of water. If I take them off after it has 200 hours on it, they're rusty.

I also don't
think the oil turns to an acid capable of dissolving the engine.

You just haven't seen it, so you don't believe it.

I could be wrong, as I haven't done the research, but then, I don't think
anyone else has either.

More "show me." Lycoming and Continental and the people who make engine
oils HAVE done the research and published it. Many more, who aren't
trying to sell oil or additives or engines, have done it as well.

Some say they have, but they aren't showing it
for us to see, at least not that I'm aware of. I realize that the 180
deg is probably meant as a guide, but they do state specifically that
if you don't hit 180, the water won't evaporate.

Water's vapor pressure rises with temperature, if you remember your
physics. Raising the vapor pressure drives it of sooner. It doesn't
have to boil. 180 is a recommendation. Below that, the water might form
in the case faster than it will evaporate, and you'll have increasing
amounts accumulating in the engine.

The research is there. Here are some who have experience in the
area:
http://www.sacskyranch.com/corrosion.htm

http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/JOM-0505-54/$FILE/JOM-0505-54F.pdf?OpenElement

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenan...mendations.htm

http://www.memagazine.org/backissues...italsigns.html

Lots more if you Google it.

Dan