Making a VFR C152 IFR

My club has a bird with an IFR certified 300XL and a 430. While it does
have the database that contains runways and frequencies, I don't recall the
300XL doing any frequency autoselection. My personal opinion is that if
you're not using it as an IFR installation, it's wasting space on the panel
that could be used for a useable navcom.

I think you'll be sorely disappointed if you trade your color 295 for a tiny
green screen 300xl.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
k.net...
It took me long enough to find a plane - my #1 priority was a good,
mid-time engine with full logs. That I got.

As for going handheld GPS - doesn't the integration with the COM help a
lot? Autoselecting frequencies and such? I already have a GPS 295 - I
was planning on selling it. They fetch nearly $1000 used still.


Brad Z wrote:
If you're installing the 300xl VFR only, why not just go with a
handheld?
Heck, a $300 handheld would beat the 300xl in screen size and features.
The
difference could buy a nice handheld com radio to use as a backup, with
a
external antenna wired in.

I'm not trying to poop on a decision already made, but if you knew you
were
going to be using this as a IFR training plaform, why didn't you search
out
a bird with the necessary avionics? Just curious

I can't count the number of folks who get their private certificate and
go
out and buy a 150/152, only to wish they bought just a bit more for
instrument training, trips, passengers, etc.


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
k.net...

Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).

Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
discovered that.)

Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
suggestions on where to go from there.

Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.

I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense
to
have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I
have
the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR

flight.)

TIA.

Well, I've not yet seen a 300XL up close, but I wouldn't have thought
the quality of the display would pale compared to my 295 (although I
knew I'd lose the color - not a big deal to me - I've seen several
grey-scale handhelds that I thought were fine).

This is more food for thought.

Brad Z wrote:

My club has a bird with an IFR certified 300XL and a 430. While it does
have the database that contains runways and frequencies, I don't recall the
300XL doing any frequency autoselection. My personal opinion is that if
you're not using it as an IFR installation, it's wasting space on the panel
that could be used for a useable navcom.

I think you'll be sorely disappointed if you trade your color 295 for a tiny
green screen 300xl.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
k.net...

It took me long enough to find a plane - my #1 priority was a good,
mid-time engine with full logs. That I got.

As for going handheld GPS - doesn't the integration with the COM help a
lot? Autoselecting frequencies and such? I already have a GPS 295 - I
was planning on selling it. They fetch nearly $1000 used still.


Brad Z wrote:

If you're installing the 300xl VFR only, why not just go with a

handheld?

Heck, a $300 handheld would beat the 300xl in screen size and features.

The

difference could buy a nice handheld com radio to use as a backup, with

a

external antenna wired in.

I'm not trying to poop on a decision already made, but if you knew you

were

going to be using this as a IFR training plaform, why didn't you search

out

a bird with the necessary avionics? Just curious

I can't count the number of folks who get their private certificate and

go

out and buy a 150/152, only to wish they bought just a bit more for
instrument training, trips, passengers, etc.


"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
link.net...


Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).

Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
discovered that.)

Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:



I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.

At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.

Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
suggestions on where to go from there.

Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.

I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense

to

have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I

have

the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR

flight.)


TIA.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
k.net...


As for going handheld GPS - doesn't the integration with the COM help a
lot? Autoselecting frequencies and such? I already have a GPS 295 - I
was planning on selling it. They fetch nearly $1000 used still.

Keep the GPS 295 and do not install a panel GPS. Autoselecting frequencies
is of only marginal help while IFR; backing up your approach on the movign
map of the 295 is very helpful, and having a backup for electrical failure
in IMC is priceless. A panel-mount GPS will give you no more utility.

For what it is worth, I fly low IMC in known-icing conditions in my
airplane, and the only GPS I have is a Garmin 295; until the precision WAAS
IFR GPS receivers come out later this year, I see no operational advantage
to a panel-mount GPS in my airplane.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote:
I see no operational advantage
to a panel-mount GPS in my airplane.

*No* operational advantage? Evidently you don't fly IFR to many small
airports.

An approach-certified GPS has enabled completion of two Angel Flights
for me.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:12:50 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).

Paul,

I see little value add by installing the 300XL VFR only. Did you get
a quote to see how much more an IFR install would be?

-Nathan

Nathan Young wrote:
On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 02:12:50 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:


Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
discouraged!

- 300XL installed *VFR only*.
- PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
- KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
- KX 209 Indicator.

Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
nav/com that's in there now, of course.

Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
(until I build my RV-9).


Paul,

I see little value add by installing the 300XL VFR only. Did you get
a quote to see how much more an IFR install would be?

Sure, get the quote, but I predict the IFR install is going to push the cost up
to where the avionics cost will start to be asignificant fraction of the value
of the airframe. Much of the cost of an IFR GPS is in the installation and
certification. For the intended use, the value/cost ratio won't be there.
Consider also the cost of datbase updates to keep it certified.

About the other poster who said you'll get more utility with a handheld GPS: I'd
say there's value in having it in the panel instead. I dislike having wires
strung all over the cockpit for antennas and power connections, etc.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

I see little value add by installing the 300XL VFR only. Did you get
a quote to see how much more an IFR install would be?

Even an IFR GPS would provide minimal functional improvement over a Garmin
295 unless he plans to fly under IMC into airports with only GPS approaches.

If he is in radar contact, he can do direct with a Garmin 295.

If he is not in radar contact, he cannot go direct even with an IFR GPS.

What is the advantage of an IFR GPS in this situation?

About the other poster who said you'll get more utility with a handheld
GPS: I'd
say there's value in having it in the panel instead. I dislike having
wires
strung all over the cockpit for antennas and power connections, etc.

Replace the batteries and then there is no power connection necessary.

My Garmin 295 works fine in my airplane with its internal antenna.

The value of a battery backup for IFR flight is priceless.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

say there's value in having it in the panel instead. I dislike having

wires

strung all over the cockpit for antennas and power connections, etc.


Replace the batteries and then there is no power connection necessary.

My Garmin 295 works fine in my airplane with its internal antenna.

The value of a battery backup for IFR flight is priceless.

Good point, Richard.

I agree having battery powered navigation is valuable. I've been running a power
cord for the 196 to avoid replacing batteries all the time, but now that you
mention it, maybe I'd rather replace batteries than have the power cord. I'll
try that next time. At least I can get rid of the most annoying cord.

The internal antenna on my 196 doesn't work worth a flip when mounted on the
yoke in the Mooney, though.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

I think that this would be a pretty good plan. Your situation isn't all that
different from ours in our Cherokee a year or so ago. We got a good deal (local) on a
KLX-135 (King VFR GPS/COM), and ebay'd up a KY-197 and KN-53 (no GS)... basically a
KX-155 in two separate boxes. So, we needed the ILS to make it IFR trainable/flyable,
so we found a deal on a KNS-80. I'd assume panel space is a bit of an issue in a 152
so it might be a bit big, but I still maintain that a KNS-80 is great
bang-for-the-buck in used avionics now. Digital VOR/LOC/GS/DME/RNAV... GREAT for ifr
training. If the 300XL weren't also a COM, I might agree with the handheld GPS crowd,
but it's a lot of functionality, and it's more reliable in the panel. My GPS isn't
moving map, but aside from airspace visualizations, I don't miss it.

The trouble with the KX-155 is that it's very popular... thus overly
expensive. Maybe a KN-53 with GS for a stand-alone NAV to go with the GPS/COM.

Sorry for rambling, but it's difficult to find any sort of deal in avionics. My
experience is a bit skewed from most since my installation expenses were very
minimal...

-Cory

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
: Ok, here's what I'm thinking now. Critisism of this setup not
: discouraged!

: - 300XL installed *VFR only*.
: - PSE 6000 Audio panel with marker beacons.
: - KX-155 nav/com - there's one on Ebay right now I may pick up.
: - KX 209 Indicator.

: Local shop tells me no more than $3500 or so for this install, including
: antenna for 2nd com. Does that sound right? I'd be ditching the 385
: nav/com that's in there now, of course.

: Full cost of this setup assuming used KX-155 and 209 and new audio panel
: should be $9-$10K. While this is definitely more money than I wanted to
: spend or figured I'd have to spend, I think it may be worth it. I
: actually ran a price quote on my plane (aeroprice) with this equipment
: installed and was pleased to see the value go up by 80% or so of what
: I'd be putting into it. I plan to keep the plane for probably 4-5 years
: (until I build my RV-9).

: Again, what I want to do here is have an aircraft in which I can get my
: instrument ticket and be able to practice real-world instrument
: approaches. Subsequent to that, I don't see myself flying hard IMC, but
: being able to do a lot more flying on those marginal VFR days that keep
: me grounded now. (MVFR can turn into IFR too damn easily - I've already
: discovered that.)

: Tell me if I'm all wet (please).

: Paul Folbrecht wrote:

: I've just purchased a '79 152 that is currently VFR only. Avionics
: consist of a single nav/com and xponder. That's it.
:
: At some point in the next year or two I am going to want to get my
: instrument ticket in this aircraft, so I'm already starting to think
: about the best way to do that. Trouble is I know precious little about
: IFR equipment at the moment. If someone has some good resources/links
: that could get me up to speed I'd appreciate it.
:
: Actually, I already started buying stuff. I bought an IFR Garmin 300XL
: GPS on ebay (it was a steal). That's my start. I'm completely open to
: suggestions on where to go from there.
:
: Maybe a B/K 80 nav? Has everything else I need, right? I know I need
: an audio (switch) panel and at least one more CDI.
:
: I'll be searching for an avionics shop soon to install the GPS, but
: until then any idea what that will cost me? Might it make some sense to
: have them do a VFR-only install initially and then do it IFR when I have
: the rest of my equipment? (I want a GPS now, of course, for VFR flight.)
:
: TIA.

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

I'm in a similar situation: IFR certified C-150M with a single Narco
MK-12D that has Mkrs, GS and DME and a ARC ADF and a Narco LORAN. I
thought about replacing the Loran with a GPS and decided a handheld
was good enough for VFR/SA--an IFR GPS is too expensive to install and
too expensive to maintain with a current database (on a C-150 budget).
I bought a second Narco Mk-12D (vor/loc only) and plan on removing
the Loran. I'm conflicted about retaining the ADF as it still works
but is such a boat anchor I'll probably either remove it or move it
and its indicator to the glove box area. If relocating it costs
significantly, it will be tossed. This will give me room to move the
transponder to the center stack (from the glove box area), have two
nav/coms and a new audio panel all close at hand in the center. Two
comm radios makes it nice to monitor ATIS without having to go off
freq with ATC. Two navs simplifies the 30 day VOR check as well as
making intersection ID much easier. IFR GPS is certainly nice but I
couldn't justify it in a C-150. I already have DME (IDME 891) so
there is less of a requirement for the IFR GPS. The Cessna 150/152
panel is certainly space challenged, but maybe that's a good thing