Procedure Turn

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Rod Madsen" wrote in message
.. .

I'm wondering. If you're already at the proper altitude and on the
localizer, why not?


I'm wondering how you came to be on the localizer at the proper altitude
without either a radar vector or a NoPT segment or out of a holding fix.

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of FARAN,
see http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".

A strict interpretation of the rules says that if I wanted to fly the
ILS-16, I should either fly to IGN and fly the NoPT segment from there,
or fly to HESTR and do a PT. A more rational approach would be to just
drop down to 2000 at FARAN, then follow the published procedure from
that point. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that anything else
would be absurd.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of
FARAN, see
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".


Couldn't come up with a real-world scenario? Whatever, I'll play, but more
information is needed. What's the routing that brought you to that point 5
NW of FARAN?

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of
FARAN, see
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".


Couldn't come up with a real-world scenario? Whatever, I'll play, but more
information is needed. What's the routing that brought you to that point 5
NW of FARAN?

With the exception of the cruise clearance, it's pretty real-world.
Coming from that direction, I've been asked to intercept the localizer
25-30 miles out.

But, OK, if you'll play, I'll play. Remember, though, the game we're
playing is "How should you fly this clearance", not "Let's argue about
whether NY Approach would ever issue a cruise clearance". If you don't
want to play my game, I'm picking up my airplane and my microphone and
going home :-)

How about I had just departed Minard Farms, NY (1NY7). I got my
clearance from FSS on the phone, "ATC clears N-25629 to the White Plains
Airport via direct. Maintain 3000, departure frequency is 132.75,
squawk 1234. Clearance void if not off by 0700. Time now is 0648".

Direct course from 1NY7 to HPN is 170. By the time I completed my
initial departure to the west to avoid the high towers east of the
airport, and turned on course, HPN was bearing 162.

At that time, NY Approach finally responded to my radio call and gave me
"Radar contact, 5 southwest of Minard. Proceed on course, maintain
3000". Sometime later, the controller handed me off to 126.4. The
controller on that frequency gave me the cruise clearance quoted above.

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at HPN is
800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would be your course of
action?

Here's a real-world scenario that I've encountered:

VOR 22 approach to GED (Georgetown, DE):

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/publis...s/00935V22.PDF

Coming from the northeast, on the 057 radial inbound to ATR (Victor 308),
Dover Approach says "cross Waterloo at 3000, cleared for the VOR 22 approach".
Since my course is now 237, I'm only three degrees off the final approach
course of 234. There's no "No PT" sector shown, and the charted hold in lieu
of a PT would put me on the 033 radial, with a 23 degree turn at the FAF.
Obviously it makes no sense to do a turn in the hold, and Dover didn't expect
me to, but some people would claim it's required. Is Dover doing anything
contrary to 7110.65?

Barry

Roy Smith wrote:



A strict interpretation of the rules says that if I wanted to fly the
ILS-16, I should either fly to IGN and fly the NoPT segment from there,
or fly to HESTR and do a PT. A more rational approach would be to just
drop down to 2000 at FARAN, then follow the published procedure from
that point. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that anything else
would be absurd.

I'll give you a simple hypothetical. The ABC VOR is 5 miles from Acme
Airport, due east. The 270 radial is the final approach course and is
sufficiently aligned with Runway 27 to permit straight-in minimums. ABC is in
the middle of nowhere and has no DME. The only transition is via airway to
ABC, then outbound on the 090 radial for a procedure turn. The altitude
crossing the VOR outbound is 4,000, the PT completion altitude is 3,000, and
the runway elevation is 1,400 with an MDA of 1,880 (480').

Let's say the center sets you up 30 miles east of ABC by vectoring you to the
090 radial at 5,000. He then gives you a cruise clearance. As I said there
is no DME and you don't have GPS. How do you fly this one?

Let's modify it slightly. Center sets you up the same, but tells you to
maintain 5,000 and he will call 10 miles from ABC. At 10 miles he says, "10
miles east of ABC VOR, cleared for the Acme VOR Runway 27 approach." No doubt
on this one, it's a clear and proper application of "vectors to final" and you
would not do a procedure turn. In fact, in effect, he has set you up in
position as if you had rolled out of the PT, albeit higher and a bit further
out, but at an altitude compatible with the procedure (200/foot per mile
descent gradient).

Now, let's say it's a not-so-sharp center controller and he sets you up on the
095 radial inbound, or perhaps the 080 radial inbound, then gives you a cruise
clearance 25 miles out. What do you do then?

When is it okay to descend? When is it okay to not be absurd and go
straight-in, etc, etc?