Busted IFR Checkride

First the operational reason - holds are sometimes used for course
reversal on approaches in lieu of procedure turns. In such a case,
you are expected to do only the hold entry. Further, for your own
good you need to be well established on the inbound course before
crossing the fix. Finally, when this is done, the reason the hold was
chosen over the PT was to keep you out of airspace or obstructions.
So the bottom line is holding is not important until it it. Still,
there are other items that fall into that category (for example IFR
departures from VFR fields) that are not covered at all.

Good point, screwing up an enroute hold is rarely a big deal, but IFR
departure procedures often prescribe identical orbiting procedures
(even if they are not called "holds") that really do keep you out of
the weeds, sometimes with not very big margins. If you get messed up
there, I'd say head straight back to the navaid while climbing and try
to sort it out.

I only became really aware of published IDP's and the various TERPS
issues after reading Wally Robert's site, my own instrument training
did not emphasise this too much, which is a bit scary in retrospect...

(Martin Kosina) wrote
IFR
departure procedures often prescribe identical orbiting procedures
(even if they are not called "holds")

And sometimes they are. I've seen DP's with instructions to 'climb in
the hold' and should have mentioned that one as well.

that really do keep you out of
the weeds, sometimes with not very big margins. If you get messed up
there, I'd say head straight back to the navaid while climbing and try
to sort it out.

At normal climb speeds for certified singles, if you just head for the
holding fix and fly standard rate turns around it with some effort
made to keep the navaid in the center, you're not going to leave the
protected airspace.

I only became really aware of published IDP's and the various TERPS
issues after reading Wally Robert's site, my own instrument training
did not emphasise this too much, which is a bit scary in retrospect...

Unfortunately, your situation is far from rare.

Michael

On 22 Apr 2004 23:59:48 GMT, Andrew Sarangan wrote:

I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride? Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

The only requirement for a holding pattern is to stay within the protected
area. Getting to the holding fix and turning the shortest way to remain
within the protected area can be a simpler (and acceptable) method of
getting into the hold than the "recommended" procedures.

From the IR PTS holding procedures: "Explains and uses an entry
procedure that ensures the aircraft remains within the holding pattern
airspace for a standard, nonstandard, published, or nonpublished holding
pattern."

So far as it's usefulness, just a few days ago I missed an approach into my
home base because the ceiling was below minimums. The missed approach
procedure included a holding pattern. My plan was to hold for a 1/2 hour
and then try the approach again. If that didn't work, I would be off to my
alternate. Of course, my fairly new CNX80 made holding pretty simple. The
box even adjusted the holding pattern size (and shape) to account for the
winds!


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
Of course, my fairly new CNX80 made holding pretty simple. The
box even adjusted the holding pattern size (and shape) to account for the
winds!

How does it know what the wind is?

My club has the CNX-80 in four of our planes now. It's a cool radio,
but there is certainly a learning curve. I've got about 25 hours behind
box now, and havn't learned everything there is to know about it yet.

Roy Smith wrote:
Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

Of course, my fairly new CNX80 made holding pretty simple. The
box even adjusted the holding pattern size (and shape) to account for the
winds!


How does it know what the wind is?

My club has the CNX-80 in four of our planes now. It's a cool radio,
but there is certainly a learning curve. I've got about 25 hours behind
box now, and havn't learned everything there is to know about it yet.

Seems like it would have to have an internal compass or some other
source of heading information to do this trick.


Matt

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 20:54:39 -0400, Roy Smith wrote:

How does it know what the wind is?

My club has the CNX-80 in four of our planes now. It's a cool radio,
but there is certainly a learning curve. I've got about 25 hours behind
box now, and havn't learned everything there is to know about it yet.

I don't know that it knows the winds. But it knows the ground track and
ground speed. It probably assumes a constant airspeed and makes
computations that way. It was interesting seeing the *shape* of the
holding pattern (as drawn on the screen) change.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Roy Smith wrote:

My club has the CNX-80 in four of our planes now. It's a cool radio,
but there is certainly a learning curve. I've got about 25 hours behind
box now, and havn't learned everything there is to know about it yet.

Nice club. Where's this, again?

- Andrew

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On 22 Apr 2004 23:59:48 GMT, Andrew Sarangan wrote:


I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride? Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?


The only requirement for a holding pattern is to stay within the protected
area. Getting to the holding fix and turning the shortest way to remain
within the protected area can be a simpler (and acceptable) method of
getting into the hold than the "recommended" procedures.

From the IR PTS holding procedures: "Explains and uses an entry
procedure that ensures the aircraft remains within the holding pattern
airspace for a standard, nonstandard, published, or nonpublished holding
pattern."

So far as it's usefulness, just a few days ago I missed an approach into my
home base because the ceiling was below minimums. The missed approach
procedure included a holding pattern. My plan was to hold for a 1/2 hour
and then try the approach again. If that didn't work, I would be off to my
alternate. Of course, my fairly new CNX80 made holding pretty simple. The
box even adjusted the holding pattern size (and shape) to account for the
winds!

That is definitely cheating! :-)


Matt

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:54:16 -0400, Matt Whiting
wrote:

That is definitely cheating! :-)

And no apologies!!


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Jon Kraus wrote:

Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that...

Hey Jon,

Appreciate your post. I am getting closer to that time.... What part
of holding did you bust, timing? Entry? Suggestions for my check ride
to come down the road???

Allen