Lidle crash: who is wrong?

I'm just trying to understand what happened. Looked at the
Google sat photo, the soccer field looked like the best and
closest landing area. Not really sure if the locations is
totally correct. All I know for sure is that the news media
hires idiots who can fill hours with nothing.

I do know from experience that winds around the buildings
can cause lots of turbulence which could cause control
problems.

Just where the airplane was when the problem began is
unknown, all we know for sure is where it ended up.

All my flying in the NYC area has been in King Air and
Beechjet aircraft, have not run the VFR corridors. Don't
have a current chart and not sure what they did and what the
rules are. Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
NYC chart that shows the area in question?



"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:YLhXg.2547$XX2.2048@dukeread04...
| Google for "524 e 72nd st.,new york city" and look at
the
| sat photo. There is a soccer field just northeast
across
| the river. IF they were having some engine problem,
that
| could have looked like the best place to land. Passing
the
| tops of the buildings and with probable winds aloft
being
| twice as strong as surface winds [maybe 25 kts. ] and
the
| venturi effect, the plane could have easily been turned
| directly into the building. Just a guess.
|
| I don't understand your scenario. They'd have been flying
north along the
| east shore of the narrow river, then making a U-turn to
fly south along the
| west shore. Aside from the river itself, plausible nearby
landing sites are
| along the east shore and on the island in the middle of
the river; I don't
| see how heading for those sites would have led them to
crash on the west
| side of the river. (Plus, there was no distress call or
other indication of
| engine problems.)
|
| If they flew too fast, making the turn too wide (which is
my guess), they'd
| have hit the north side of a building on the west
shore--which they did.
|
| --Gary
|
|
|
|
| "Blasto" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| | Confusing reports on the Lidle crash-- Mayor
Bloomberg,
| sounding
| | utterly confident in his sources, says the plane took
off
| from
| | Teterboro, circled the Statue of Liberty, flew up
| (south-to-north) the
| | East River, then into the building. A few minutes
earlier,
| a CNN
| | reporter using PASSUR asserted that after taking off
the
| plane tracked
| | straight west-to-east over Central Park, turned right
and
| followed the
| | East River (north-to-south) and suddenly banked right
into
| the
| | building. Given that the impact was on the building's
| north face, the
| | latter account seems more likely.
| |
| | Anyone have newer info?
| |
| | --
| | B
| |
|
|
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:4ApXg.2566$XX2.1045@dukeread04...
All my flying in the NYC area has been in King Air and
Beechjet aircraft, have not run the VFR corridors. Don't
have a current chart and not sure what they did and what the
rules are. Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
NYC chart that shows the area in question?

http://skyvector.com/

Thanks
"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
. ..
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:4ApXg.2566$XX2.1045@dukeread04...
| All my flying in the NYC area has been in King Air and
| Beechjet aircraft, have not run the VFR corridors.
Don't
| have a current chart and not sure what they did and what
the
| rules are. Anybody know of a free download for a
terminal
| NYC chart that shows the area in question?
|
| http://skyvector.com/
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote:

Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
NYC chart that shows the area in question?

http://skyvector.com/

"Jim Macklin" wrote:

Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
NYC chart that shows the area in question?

http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/...20TAC%2069.tif
(31MB)

Thanks again.
"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin"
wrote:
|
| Anybody know of a free download for a terminal
| NYC chart that shows the area in question?
|
| http://skyvector.com/

Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't understand your scenario. They'd have been flying north along the
east shore of the narrow river, then making a U-turn to fly south along the
west shore. Aside from the river itself, plausible nearby landing sites are
along the east shore and on the island in the middle of the river; I don't
see how heading for those sites would have led them to crash on the west
side of the river. (Plus, there was no distress call or other indication of
engine problems.)

If they flew too fast, making the turn too wide (which is my guess), they'd
have hit the north side of a building on the west shore--which they did.

--Gary

Also, the winds were coming from ENE gusting to 22. Going northbound on
the west fork of the East River and making a lefthand turn, the turning
radius would be significantly wider. This would have contributed to the
"surprise" factor as well (not unlike the typical overshooting the
final in a crosswind situation).

Marco

To the pilots who fly the area regularly-

That turn looks to me like it needs to be handled as a base-final
turn... get flaps out 10 (maybe even 25) and stabalized at ~60 knots
(my pa28-140 speeds), and make a nice crisp pattern turn (I know, most
pattern turns are 90 then 90, but you get my drift).

Is this a safe assessment?

An A.net guy calculated his speed based on the returns, he was doing
almost 120 knots up the east river until immediately before the turn,
then he abruptly slowed to 90... we were wondering if he would have had
time to get the plane stabalized before initiating the turn.

At that point, all he needed was a bit of poor pilotage (something I
myself must admit too on occasion)- he initiates a tight turn too
quickly, does not hold enough back preassure on the yoke, finds himself
suddenly in a skyscraper forest, panics- firewall the throttle and turn
hard to avoid a looming monolith in front of him... stall... and
physics does the rest.

Blasto wrote:
Confusing reports on the Lidle crash-- Mayor Bloomberg, sounding
utterly confident in his sources, says the plane took off from
Teterboro, circled the Statue of Liberty, flew up (south-to-north) the
East River, then into the building. A few minutes earlier, a CNN
reporter using PASSUR asserted that after taking off the plane tracked
straight west-to-east over Central Park, turned right and followed the
East River (north-to-south) and suddenly banked right into the
building. Given that the impact was on the building's north face, the
latter account seems more likely.

Anyone have newer info?

--
B