Instrument Student Pilot Filing IFR

Mark Hansen wrote:

Let's be precise. The instrument student may file all the flight plans
he cares to. He just can't accept a clearance.


So is it enough that the CFII is in the plane, listening to the radio
exchange while the student requests and copies/reads-back the clearance?

As PIC, the CFII would be the one officially accepting the clearance (or
not) - non-verbally. The student would only be copying it to paper and
reading it back.

Is this right?

Works for me... but I am neither the NTSB nor the FAA.

Mark Hansen wrote:

As PIC, the CFII would be the one officially accepting the clearance (or
not) - non-verbally. The student would only be copying it to paper and
reading it back.

Is this right?

That's it. You could have your two year old ask for the clearance, or
even the guy at the front desk of the FBO, but the PIC on board is
accepting the clearance by launching a flight in accordance with it.
In the case of the student making the radio calls, he or she is just
the conduit.

Mark Hansen wrote:

As PIC, the CFII would be the one officially accepting the clearance (or
not) - non-verbally. The student would only be copying it to paper and
reading it back.

It's not even so involved. The student can accept the clearance.
The PIC is just ultimately responsible. Command is more of a
responsibility thing than any particular act.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:32:52 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:

Roy N5804F wrote:

The consensus seems to be that an instrument student cannot file an IFR plan
in his own name.

Careful with the words can and can not. The student can do anything.
They may not doing it legally. One implies the ability to do so and
the other has implicit permission.

Let's be precise. The instrument student may file all the flight plans
he cares to. He just can't accept a clearance.

We may be getting hung up in scemantics here, but:
How so? I filed (Instrument training flight) in actual, called on the
RCO, or now GCO for the clearance,read back clearance, Accepted
vectors and the instructor sat there and watched. Had I screwed up he
would have said something. This was the last actual IFR in IMC cross
country before the check ride, but as far as the filing and accepting
clearances he had me doing that from day one.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 13:32:52 -0500, Dave Butler wrote:
Let's be precise. The instrument student may file all the flight plans
he cares to. He just can't accept a clearance.


We may be getting hung up in scemantics here, but:
How so? I filed (Instrument training flight) in actual, called on the
RCO, or now GCO for the clearance,read back clearance, Accepted
vectors and the instructor sat there and watched. Had I screwed up he
would have said something. This was the last actual IFR in IMC cross
country before the check ride, but as far as the filing and accepting
clearances he had me doing that from day one.

As has been discussed in other postings on this thread, the instructor
is acting as PIC and accepts the clearance by proxy.

The reason is in the FAR, you have to be a certificated and
current instrument rated pilot, in an aircraft certified for
IFR flight to file an IFR flight plan.

Simply filing the flight plan OR operating in IMC condition
is a violation. IFR flight plan in VMC is a violation
unless the PIC NAMED, not just PIC is legal.



"Roy N5804F" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| Well thanks to all for the input so far.
| The consensus seems to be that an instrument student
cannot file an IFR plan
| in his own name.
| The basis of that opinion seems to hinge on who is PIC.
| I am not sure, but I think that electronic filing via AOPA
flight planner
| would not give you any opportunity to use other than your
own name ?
| So maybe all filing would have to be done via the
telephone or radio.
|
| Roy
|
|
| "Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
|
ups.com...
| Technically the name on the flight plan must be that of
the PIC, which
| in this case is the CFII. However, I doubt that anyone
would care whose
| name is on the flight plan as long as there is a
qualified PIC in the
| cockpit. Just the same as ATC does not care what you use
for navigation
| as long as you fly your clearance. The only time a
question would arise
| is in case of an accident or emergency. In those cases
it would not
| matter whose name was on the flight plan. The presumed
PIC will be at
| fault. In the case of a dual flight, the CFI is the
presumed PIC even
| if he was not actively instructing.
|
|
|
| Roy N5804F wrote:
| Is it legal for a non-instrument rated pilot to file
IFR in his own name
| in
| order to undergo instrument training while accompanied
by his CFII ?
| In other words.
| Who should file IFR for a training instrument flight ?
The student or the
| CFII ?
|
| Thanks for input
|
| --
| Roy
| Piper Archer N5804F
|
|
|
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...

The reason is in the FAR, you have to be a certificated and
current instrument rated pilot, in an aircraft certified for
IFR flight to file an IFR flight plan.

Simply filing the flight plan OR operating in IMC condition
is a violation. IFR flight plan in VMC is a violation
unless the PIC NAMED, not just PIC is legal.

I really appreciate all the input on this topic.
So I think that the consensus of interpretation of the FARs indicates that.
1. A student instrument pilot cannot file an IFR flight plan in his own
name.
2. A student instrument pilot cannot accept an IFR clearance.
Would I be correct in saying therefore, that the first time a pilot can
practice and get real familier with the normal IFR procedures could be his
first flight after being certified ?
If that is the case I would consider that the FAR's fail to address the need
for good operational training prior to being certified for instrument
flight.
Interesting isn't it ?

2. A student instrument pilot cannot accept an IFR clearance.
Would I be correct in saying therefore, that the first time a pilot can
practice and get real familier with the normal IFR procedures could be his
first flight after being certified ?

No.

A student pilot can "relay the CFI's acceptance of a clearance", this
practice is just as good as actually accepting one.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Roy N5804F wrote:
If that is the case I would consider that the FAR's fail to address the need
for good operational training prior to being certified for instrument
flight.
Interesting isn't it ?

Kind of like how you suddenly become qualified to accept a Class B
clearance after you pass your PP checkride.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

"Jim Macklin" wrote:
Simply filing the flight plan OR operating in IMC condition
is a violation. IFR flight plan in VMC is a violation
unless the PIC NAMED, not just PIC is legal.

I know of no FAR that says anything about who may perform secretarial
functions such as typing some information into a computerized data-entry
form, dictating information to a FSS guy on the phone, or reading back a
radio transmission to a controller.