Who plays golf at Nellis?

"ArtKramr" wrote

How about taking some of that tax cut and giving it to our enlisted troops?.

The best way to solve this problem, is to make all military pay exempt
from taxes. It makes no sense to tax taxes.

(BUFDRVR) wrote in
:

There is no comparison of enlisted folks to officers, even today. I
probably wouldn't trust anyone below (E-6) to make a decision on
their own, where it involved multi-millions, or 40 peoples lives.

How about 5? I trusted my life and that of my crew to anywhere between
2 and 10 E-3 through E-5's nearly every sortie, and after getting to
know these young men (and a few women) I never had a worry in the
world. In fact, I literally never worried about the condition of my
jet, *ever*!

As a wrench turning E-5 myself, I would like to say I appreciate your kind
words, BUF. I'll say there are definitely some 3-5 types who I feel can be
given a lot of trust to. I've also seen 6-8 types - and even some O's - who
I wouldn't trust much further than I can throw them when it comes to my own
safety. Point is, I think each individual should be treated individually -
not necessarily by what kind of rank they have.

Subject: Who plays golf at Nellis?
From: "S. Sampson"
Date: 7/23/03 7:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

"ArtKramr" wrote

How about taking some of that tax cut and giving it to our enlisted
troops?.

The best way to solve this problem, is to make all military pay exempt
from taxes. It makes no sense to tax taxes.




Agreed. How about that plus pay raises?. After all what is a soldiers life
worth? In Flanders field the poppies blow, between the crosses row on row.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

Agreed. How about that plus pay raises?. After all what is a soldiers life
worth? In Flanders field the poppies blow, between the crosses row on row.

Sure, why not! After all, we're only 6 trillion in debt.

I would hold 1000 nukes (WMD), and de-commission the rest, and convert
the money into combat pay.

There is no comparison of enlisted folks to officers, even today. I
probably wouldn't trust anyone below (E-6) to make a decision on
their own, where it involved multi-millions, or 40 peoples lives. I know
there are exceptions, but speaking generally, I think lower enlisted grades
should have Squadron level endorsement on marriage benefits being paid.


Have you ever been in the military? What makes an O-1, 2 or 3 anymore qualified
to make such judgements than an E-4 or E-5? The college? There are officers
with no college and there are enlisteds with PhDs. Check out the regs. An E-4
is capable of doing his job with a minimal ammount of supervision. An E-5 can
be a 7 level. In other words he can sign off on safety of flight items.

Set your predjudices aside a recognize that officers are no better men than
enlisteds. The guys that fix the aircraft are E-1 - E6. Most of the wrench
benders are E-2 through E-5 and they make decisions every single day. The
multimillion dollar systems from aircraft to ICBMS are maintained extremely
well by the people you have insulted.

The other branches are similar in that regard.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
There has been talk here that retired military who play golf at Nellis
call
the
shots concerning traffic patterns.The most avid golfer at Nellis is the
CO..And
nobody gives a damn what the retired military thinks or wants. You figure
it
out.

You really need to lose that over grown chip on your shoulder. The golf
courses in this discussion are *off base* courses.


BUFDRVR

Any of you guys hear about the goose/golf course flap at Langley a few years
ago? (mid-90's)

There was a proposal to capture and kill a bunch of geese on base. The
original story was a safety of flight issue. No more bird strikes. PETA &
SPCA got all huffy about it, etc. Long local discussions.

Well...the local paper ( www.dailypress.com ) somehow got hold of a long
email chain, and published it in a Sunday edition.

Pretty clearly showed that the problem was not birdstrike reduction, but
instead all the goose poop on the golf course. ACC was hosting an upcoming
conference, and they wanted the golf course looking nice.

Pete

"S. Sampson" wrote in message


I would hold 1000 nukes (WMD), and de-commission the rest, and convert
the money into combat pay.

What money? I suspect you'd find that it actually costs money to
decommission the weapons, so the initial result of is actually an increased
cost to reduce the number of weapons.

As it is, the nuke inventory may decline to around 1700-2200 weapons under
the Moscow Treaty. That's the number allowed to be active. More may be kept
inactive, which may well be cheaper than actually dismantling them in the
near term.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

Consider the Class A Felony convictions of enlisted folks versus officer
folks.

The
multimillion dollar systems from aircraft to ICBMS are maintained extremely
well by the people you have insulted.

I think your reading my inputs here as an insult is telling.

Making broad statements as you would not trust anyone below E-6, GED and class
A felonies shows you are just plain predjudiced. Yes it takes a maintenance
officer to "ramrod" each flight, but that maintenance officer has to be able to
trust ALL the maintainers.

Why did I take offense? I find all bigotry offensive.

As for the class A felony thing you should know that the base commander's
office puts out a quarterly courtmartial/Article 15 list. Having seen that list
a few times I decided to make a rather unscientific study and found the per
capita courtmatial/Article 15 rate to be about the same.

Have you ever noticed the police blotters in base papers give enlisted ranks
but officers are listed as "an Air Force member" or some such? Granted the
police blotter never lists all offences, but you get the idea.

In the early 80s an enlisted member called the Eglin AFB base commander's
hotline asking why no officers were ever listed in the base paper as getting
Article 15s. He responded in the base paper that he did publish them in the
paper when they happened it had just been that no officers had received Article
15s in the recent past. He was a flat out liar. One of the 2 Article 15s given
to officers in the past quarter was a 1Lt friend of mine. Furthermore I had
seen the list for that quarter.

In short, you may not have heard of legal action taken against officers simply
because that information is covered up. I know of one captain who was allowed
to resign rather than face a courtmartial for DUI, resisting arrest, presenting
a false ID ( he had an enlisted man's) , conduct unbecoming etc("class A"
felonies). An enlisted man in a similar situation would have been raked across
the coals for exactly the same thing.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

"S. Sampson" wrote in message
.. .
"B2431" wrote
The guys that fix the aircraft are E-1 - E6. Most of the wrench
benders are E-2 through E-5 and they make decisions every single day.

Consider the Class A Felony convictions of enlisted folks versus officer
folks.

Just remember how much damage Officers have done to the military Vs.
enlisted. I don't recall any Enlisteds being at Tailhook or the chAir Force
Academy.

Enlisted men (or women) shouldn't be allowed to have a family :-)


Senior NCOs and junior enlisted are equally capable of messing up
their marriages. I still remember one of my E-2s in Korea coming
to me for advice because his wife and baby were due in a couple of
days (on an unaccompanied tour!), while he was in the middle of a
two-week VD restriction.

And I was in the orderly room when an E-6's wife called after curfew,
wanting to speak with him. Unfortunately, he was down range at his
yobo's place for the night. I told her that I didn't know where he
was (technically true) but that I'd have him call her.

Okay, so an E-6 isn't a senior NCO. We had an E-7 retire and a month
or so later came through to tell us about his new job as a courier and
how he was staying with his yobo. That's the last we saw of him, but
about a week later we got a letter from his wife in CONUS wanting to
know where he was and why she had to move out of on-post housing. That
was the first she knew about his retirement.

The officers were for the most part less messy. Or at least more
discreet.

Sigh.