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On Oct 30, 6:50 pm, Ramy wrote:
" No matter how safe you think you are, the risk is still significantly higher than most normal activities (such as driving)" You sure? How many times have you seen a traffic accident on your way to the gliderport? In the same time frame, how many glider accidents have you seen in that same airport? Although I can appreciate what Patrick is going through, stopping from flying ARE NOT going to stop accidents from happening. And I doubt the deads would have want us to stop anyway... |
#2
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[apologies if this is a double-post - the first one didn't seem to go
through] On Oct 31, 4:04 pm, jeplane wrote: On Oct 30, 6:50 pm, Ramy wrote: " No matter how safe you think you are, the risk is still significantly higher than most normal activities (such as driving)" You sure? How many times have you seen a traffic accident on your way to the gliderport?... That question reflects a very typical, but not very productive approach to the issue at hand. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Data such as that in this PDF is why I personally feel fairly certain when I say that flying gliders is considerably riskier than most of what you'd call "normal activities": http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2007/ARG0701.pdf See page 15, which shows (for year 2003) bar graphs for both the raw total and fatal accident numbers per general aviation sector, and the total and fatal accidents per hours flown for each sector. Observe that the numbers for gliders are 19.45 accidents per 100,000 hours flown, with 5.07 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours. That's second only to amateur-built aircraft, with 21.6 and 5.5 respectively. Contrast that with the numbers for single-engine piston-powered airplanes with 7.91 accidents and 1.41 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours. In 2003 at least, gliders had 245% more accidents and 360% more fatal accidents per hour than the puddle-jumpers that comprise the majority of the US general aviation fleet. There's no breakdown for poor saps like me who combine the two worst categories by dabbling in amateur-built gliders, but my bet is that the numbers would be somewhere between the two. As concerns comparisons between the accident rates of flying and driving, I defer to this analysis by Harry Mantakos: http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flyin...vsdriving.html Given those numbers, I normally feel fairly confident when I say that soaring is much more dangerous than driving, and is perhaps comparable to riding a motorcycle. But I do tend to get odd looks when I go on to say that I gave up riding on the street and took up Formula IV roadracing (125cc anything-goes full-fairing 2-stroke bikes with top speed of about 100 mph) because I thought it was safer as well as more fun. Bottom line: I don't recommend flying or soaring to just everybody. Based on what I know about their methods, means, and risk aversion, for some folks I recommend knitting or photography. Thanks, Bob K. |
#3
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On 1 Nov, 00:41, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
Observe that the numbers for gliders are 19.45 accidents per 100,000 hours flown, with 5.07 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours. Coo. And I just estimated (in another post before seeing this) a fatality every 25,000 pilot hours in the UK. Ian |
#4
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On Oct 31, 7:41 pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
...clip... Observe that the numbers for gliders are 19.45 accidents per 100,000 hours flown, with 5.07 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours. That's second only to amateur-built aircraft, with 21.6 and 5.5 respectively. Contrast that with the numbers for single-engine piston-powered airplanes with 7.91 accidents and 1.41 fatal accidents per 100,000 hours. In 2003 at least, gliders had 245% more accidents and 360% more fatal accidents per hour than the puddle-jumpers that comprise the majority of the US general aviation fleet ....clip... As concerns comparisons between the accident rates of flying and driving, I defer to this analysis by Harry Mantakos: http://www.meretrix.com/~harry/flyin...vsdriving.html Given those numbers, I normally feel fairly confident when I say that soaring is much more dangerous than driving, and is perhaps comparable to riding a motorcycle. ...clip... The fatalities-per-hoiur statistics in soaring were presented at SSA a couple of years ago, and Judge McWhorter, sitting next to me, compared it to the fatality rate in coal mining, a famously risky occupation. Judge quickly calculated in his head that soaring has about a five- fold greater fatality rate per hour than coal miners. But he's a mining-safety expert; his next point was not that coal mining is too dangerous, or that soaring is too dangerous, but that formal safety practices, taught and followed with discipline, reduce the fatality experience rate tremendously in coal mining, and would in soaring also. The key to devising safety practices is understanding the behavior and circumstances that increase the incidence of deadly accidents (we call them 'accidents' because the participants had no intention of having them). The key to making safety practices effective is to follow them with discipline and understanding. Now, the caveat is that we can ultimately control only our own behavior; we merely influence others, which is not the same thing. So we then need to understand also to what extent we are at risk from others' foolishness or ignorance, or from uncontrollable factors. In this regard, a colleague stopped riding motorcycle completely, during college, when he discovered a statistic that said that 2/3 of motorcycle accidents are due to autos turning left in front of the motorcycle. Most of the risk was beyond his control, and he wanted to matriculate through medical school with intact brain and spinal cord. Another factor is tolerable risk. Several posters have alluded to this: a single parent with small children will have little tolerance for personal risk, for the sake of the children. Others have more room. I'm not here to deride either. And fear itself is an very aversive emotion. Whether or not the fear is rational, it's real, and it's distracting. One sensible response to fear is withdrawal from the situation. If this means to stop soaring, so be it, for that person. For others, it stimulates additional study or training, or a change in location or practices. So be it. Thanks for listening. DJ |
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On Oct 31, 4:04 pm, jeplane wrote:
On Oct 30, 6:50 pm, Ramy wrote: " No matter how safe you think you are, the risk is still significantly higher than most normal activities (such as driving)" You sure? How many times have you seen a traffic accident on your way to the gliderport? In the same time frame, how many glider accidents have you seen in that same airport? Although I can appreciate what Patrick is going through, stopping from flying ARE NOT going to stop accidents from happening. And I doubt the deads would have want us to stop anyway... Yes, I am sure and I think Marc explained it very well. No need to be a rocket scientist to do the math. Couple of posters on this thread clearly don't understand basic statistics. And yes, stopping from flying WILL stop flying accident to happen to those who stops flying. But I agree with you with one thing, the deads would not want us to stop flying. But I am also sympathise with those who got traumatized witnessing accidents and losing friends. And don't get me wrong, I am not advocating stopping flying, in the contrary, I will be the last one to stop, but at least I do not live in denial as some others, am very well aware that there is a big risk and I have only partial control of the risk as I am human and all human are prone to mistakes, and I am willing to take the risk since it worth it for me. As my new bumper sticker says "I live to fly and I fly to live" and hopefully I'll be able to do it for years to come. Ramy |
#6
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Not sure I agree with this quote.
How many times have you seen a traffic accident on your way to the gliderport? How mnay times have you seen a glider accident at that airport in the same time frame? Richard Phoenix, AZ On Oct 30, 5:50 pm, Ramy wrote: " No matter how safe you think you are, the risk is still significantly higher than most normal activities (such as driving). " |
#7
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![]() Soaring is the greatest sport I can imagine. No other sport can give me the feeling, same view, same fellowship etc etc. But is it worth it??? If it is a major concern for you, then it's time for you to get out of it. I will concentrate on striving to let good judgement, not my ego, drive my decision process. In other words, I will try not to do anything "Bloody Stupid", and wreck my glider. |
#8
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![]() Soaring is the greatest sport I can imagine. No other sport can give me the feeling, same view, same fellowship etc etc. But is it worth it??? Is anything worth it? You can die from sex, from eating, from drinking too much water, from too much sleeping. Hiding under the bed is not living. Stay wary, but live your life with some risks taken; otherwise you will never know who you are, or of what you are capable. |
#9
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![]() Soaring is the greatest sport I can imagine. No other sport can give me the feeling, same view, same fellowship etc etc. But is it worth it??? Hi Patrick, For myself the answer is a firm Yes. This subject is near and dear to all of us, as has been repeated by the replies here every pilot must personally address the question. Your question is valid and appropriate as Soaring is an "all in sport"and not for everyone, if after serious reflection the answer is other than a true Yes... then it certainly would be time to hang it up and OK to do so. Back in 1999 I asked myself that same "is it worth it"question about flying Hang Gliders, after 23 years of flying HGs I became a bit complacent so my answer was "No". The main reason and simple answer is because I wasn't "all in" and that's a recipe for big trouble. So I shifted to Sailplanes because I still love soaring where the interest and passion to fly returned 10 fold. I too have lost close friend in both sports, some very reciently but I've lost many more friends and family to cancer and traffic accidents. A few years ago my sister fell off a ladder while hanging a bird feeder in a tree, she is now a quadrapalegic, what can you say, you never know how long you may have as the risks in life are many. For all the reasons and more mentioned in the other replies posted here I say yes because speaking only for myself it's what makes me tick, helps to keep me firmly engaged in living a full life with a an grin and a twinkle in the eye. it's one of the great reasons to be alive. Rick - 21 Colorado, USA |
#10
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Thanks for all the view's. If I am going to quit, I am definately not
going to spend my life on bed ![]() great time too. Though soaring is extremely the best rush I can get. I like to polish the rock, beat the **** out of the skiers and so on. Who wouldn't ![]() 100mile final glide back home after 500 miles behind you. But still I don't know if it is worth it any more. Though one reason can be that I have experienced it all already. Flown 20 years, about 4000hrs. But my main consern still is that people dies. Of course you can die anywhere, doing anything. But none of my tennis friends hasn't died on tennis court. None of my icehockey friends hasn't died on ice rink. None of my sailing friends hasn't died while sailing and so on... But I've lost and wittnessed way too many fatalities. It totally changes your view when you are first person on an fatal accident site. Done that 4 times. Sure there has been stupid errors, but still. You can't rig your tennis racket wrong... On 31 loka, 00:27, Rick Culbertson wrote: Soaring is the greatest sport I can imagine. No other sport can give me the feeling, same view, same fellowship etc etc. But is it worth it??? Hi Patrick, For myself the answer is a firm Yes. This subject is near and dear to all of us, as has been repeated by the replies here every pilot mus personally address the question. Your question is valid and appropriate as Soaring is an "all in sport"and not for everyone, if after serious reflection the answer is other than a true Yes... then it certainly would be time to hang it up and OK to do so. Back in 1999 I asked myself that same "is it worth it"question about flying Hang Gliders, after 23 years of flying HGs I became a bit complacent so my answer was "No". The main reason and simple answer is because I wasn't "all in" and that's a recipe for big trouble. So I shifted to Sailplanes because I still love soaring where the interest and passion to fly returned 10 fold. I too have lost close friend in both sports, some very reciently but I've lost many more friends and family to cancer and traffic accidents. A few years ago my sister fell off a ladder while hanging a bird feeder in a tree, she is now a quadrapalegic, what can you say, you never know how long you may have as the risks in life are many. For all the reasons and more mentioned in the other replies posted here I say yes because speaking only for myself it's what makes me tick, helps to keep me firmly engaged in living a full life with a an grin and a twinkle in the eye. it's one of the great reasons to be alive. Rick - 21 Colorado, USA |
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