C172 and Spins

skym wrote:
On Mar 17, 5:42 pm, wrote:
On Mar 17, 3:19 pm, Dan wrote:

Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?
No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.
Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).
But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.
Dan Mc
172s are reluctant to spin anyway. They'll do it to the lft
readily enough if some power is used to get the speed lower and nose
higher just before stall, but to the right they'll sometimes just
rumble around into a spiral. The left wing stalls earlier due to the
rotating propeller blast striking the left root at a higher AOA, and
so trying to spin right just makes them both stall at the same time,
which won't encourage autorotation.

Dan

What is difference between a spin and a spiral?
The short answer. There are much longer ones :-))
Autorotation.

The spin requires 2 very distinct things to happen aerodynamically;
stall and a yaw rate. A spiral is an ever tightening nose low condition
with constantly increasing airspeed that occurs above stall and involves
no autorotation.
--
Dudley Henriques

Some SEL airplanes are not certified for spins. I assume the 172 isn't
in that group.

On Mar 18, 8:19 am, Tina wrote:
Some SEL airplanes are not certified for spins. I assume the 172 isn't
in that group.

The POH will let you know if spins are permitted in the airplane.

The 172E is approved for spins while loaded in the Utility category
(easily loaded that way with two occupants in the front seats and no
anvil in the baggage area).


Dan Mc

Tina wrote:
Some SEL airplanes are not certified for spins. I assume the 172 isn't
in that group.

I'm pretty sure that all of the older 172s (before production restarted in
'97) are approved for intentional spins in the Utility Category. Not sure
about the later models.

The nice thing about the 172 is that it's pretty easy to get it into the
Utility Category. My Cherokee, on the other hand, requires some careful W&B
to fit into its relatively narrow U.C. envelope. I'd spin it a lot more if
it wasn't such a pain.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200803/1

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:06:59 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
u32749@uwe wrote:

Tina wrote:
Some SEL airplanes are not certified for spins. I assume the 172 isn't
in that group.

I'm pretty sure that all of the older 172s (before production restarted in
'97) are approved for intentional spins in the Utility Category. Not sure
about the later models.

The nice thing about the 172 is that it's pretty easy to get it into the
Utility Category. My Cherokee, on the other hand, requires some careful W&B
to fit into its relatively narrow U.C. envelope. I'd spin it a lot more if
it wasn't such a pain.

Our 180 was pretty easy to get into the Utility category. Then after
several years I found that placard on the panel "Spin Entry from full
stall only" was a mistake and it wasn't certified for spins.

Recovery from a fully developed spin was interesting. It'd make one
full turn after the application of opposite rudder as if you'd done
nothing. Then it'd stop in about a half turn.

I saw two videos, IIRC from Piper. The first was a Archer with 4 guys
in it. (no way was that in the utility category). Flat spin all the
way to the ocean. I'm not sure about the other but I think it was a
Cherokee 180. It too went into a flat spin with no recovery.


John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
Our 180 was pretty easy to get into the Utility category.

Really? Mine is a pain. The U.C. range is only a few inches wide, so I
have to carefully balance the fuel vs. cockpit load. It's actually easier
when I take an instructor along in the right seat.

I saw two videos, IIRC from Piper. The first was a Archer with 4 guys
in it. (no way was that in the utility category). Flat spin all the
way to the ocean. I'm not sure about the other but I think it was a
Cherokee 180. It too went into a flat spin with no recovery.

One of the reasons for the very narrow envelope in the Cherokee is that the
spin tends to flatten pretty dramatically as the C.G. moves rearward. Even
in the utility category, I can feel the spin flattening after the 3rd or 4th
turn, when the C.G. is up against the rear limit in the U.C.

Most early model (pre '73) Cherokee 140s and 180s are approved for
intentional spins. The exceptions are models with air conditioning, or the
big fresh air fan in the tail. Any of the post '73 stretched fuselage
models (Challengers, Warriors, Archers, ...) are prohibited because the
stretched fuselage and the much larger stabilator moved the C.G. too far back.


Originally, some of the stretched '73 models were released with placards
and manuals that indicated that intentional spins were approved. After Piper
caught on that the C.G. change was just too much, an AD was issued to
rescind spin approval (removing placards and manual entries) for all of the
stretched models. The lowly 140 kept its spin approval until they quit
making it in '77.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

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Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

On Mar 20, 1:03 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote:

One of the reasons for the very narrow envelope in the Cherokee is that the
spin tends to flatten pretty dramatically as the C.G. moves rearward. Even
in the utility category, I can feel the spin flattening after the 3rd or 4th
turn, when the C.G. is up against the rear limit in the U.C.

Most early model (pre '73) Cherokee 140s and 180s are approved for
intentional spins. The exceptions are models with air conditioning, or the
big fresh air fan in the tail. Any of the post '73 stretched fuselage
models (Challengers, Warriors, Archers, ...) are prohibited because the
stretched fuselage and the much larger stabilator moved the C.G. too far back.

Originally, some of the stretched '73 models were released with placards
and manuals that indicated that intentional spins were approved. After Piper
caught on that the C.G. change was just too much, an AD was issued to
rescind spin approval (removing placards and manual entries) for all of the
stretched models. The lowly 140 kept its spin approval until they quit
making it in '77.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)


I haven't flown a 140 in a long time -- are they still spinnable?

(There's one for sale locally)

What did you do to get the airplane in a condition where the "C.G. is
up against the rear limit in the U.C?"

Seems to me if you were heading out to do spins you'd want no more
than two people (both up front), nothing loose in the airplane, and no
anvils in the baggage area.


Dan Mc

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 05:19:25 -0700 (PDT), Tina
wrote:

Some SEL airplanes are not certified for spins. I assume the 172 isn't
in that group.

The ones I've seen are approved for spins only when loaded into the
utility catagory.

"Tina" wrote in message
...
Some SEL airplanes are not certified for spins. I assume the 172 isn't
in that group.

Hi Tina,

Depends on the 172. Most, but not all, C172's were certified in both the
Normal and the Utility categories. The Normal category does not require
spin recoveries for certification. If you spin an airplane in that
certification category you become an instant test pilot! :-) The Utility
category requires spins and spin recoveries for certification and aircraft
in the Utility category can be spun.

Many GA airplanes are certified in both categories, but the Utility category
has a more restrictive weight and balance limitation. Lower weight, and
more forward CG range.

The old straight tail Cessnas would spin nicely. Then they slanted the tail
back for cosmetic reasons and shot themselves in the foot aerodynamically.
Now the bulk of the rudder is in the shade of the stabilizer in a spin and
the airplanes do not enter well or spin as well. They may also not want to
pop out of a fully developed spin. Most failed spin attempts will result in
a high speed spiral and you can build excessive speed quickly and then must
be very careful pulling out of the resulting dive so that you do not
overstress the aircraft at a speed well above maneuvering speed.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport PJY

On Mar 17, 4:19 pm, Dan wrote:
Anyone else have expereince with the C172E (1964)?

No matter what I did I could not get that bird to spin to the right.

Left spins take some work, and power helps (of course).

But right it just wallows and then steep spirals.

Dan Mc

I used to regularly spin a 172K and occasionally later models from the
80s. What worked for me, if I remember correctly, was to pull the nose
way up and reduce and maintain power at 1800 rpm. At just about the
time for the stall, I'd kick FULL left or right rudder (obviously
depending on which way I wanted to go) and pull the yoke ALL the way
back (no aileron input needed). As soon as the spin developed, power
was reduced to idle. Spinning to the right was more difficult but
possible.