F15E's trounced by Eurofighters

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:04:47 -0000, "Ian" wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.

Violation on whose part?


I can't speak for the RAF, but their regs are remarkably similar to
USAF's. It would be a violation to conduct an unbriefed DACT
engagement. Spontanous "bouncing" goes on, but it isn't condoned.

There's no point in doing it. It doesn't meet any training objectives,
it isn't controlled, it is downright dangerous and without pre-briefed
ROE proves nothing.

Not that I'm trying to condone it, but it did occur in one of the low flying
areas, where such bouncing happens all the time. The rumour round work was
that the F15s (and we were told by the Typhoon pilot they were e's) had been
following on previous sorties, and and made a bit of radio contact, leading
to the 'incident' in question.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:57:58 -0700, Ed Rasimus
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

You mean "piqued", but I digress.

I guess your right, but my interest was 'peaked' as well:-).


"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

---rest of drivel snipped---

First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a
"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around
learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud
Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably
quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and
engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and
"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.
You've described a WVR engagement and don't acknowledge that the
standard Eagle tactics would have been to long range radar shoot in
the face, then intermediate range IR shoot in the face, then blast
through with guns if the kill was not complete.

The Eurofighters wouldn't have engaged in a turn/burn WVR engagement
and the Eagles would not have been in a "fighting wing" or closer
formation so that the Eurofighters could "comfortably gun" the
trailing one.

In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by
someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training.

The comments are reportedly from Archie Neill (One of the BAE pilots
who instructs the Case White RAF pilots)

"PS Shot the sh*t out of a couple of F15s yesterday. Our first
formation teach sortie (2 ship). Battle formation, 1nm Northwest of
Windermere, bounced from the 8 o'clock. Two rapid counters and we were
saddled up in their 6, comfortably gunning the trailer, who was in
full burner in wing-rock wondering what happened.

I love this aircraft. Look out world Typhoon is coming!"

Anyone who hears what the F-15 pilots thought, do tell!

See the thread on PPrune here.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=120595

or here
http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...opic.php?t=827




I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no
reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding
superiority of the one or demise of the other.

Probabley not, but its fun non the less



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

I love this aircraft. Look out world Typhoon is coming!"

This strikes me as very much like the people who love the sports teams who
beat the teams they dislike, even when having no affiliation with either. I
imagine we won't hear much of this a few years down the line when 22s are
'trouncing' the rest.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:30:34 -0600, "t_mark" wrote:

I love this aircraft. Look out world Typhoon is coming!"

This strikes me as very much like the people who love the sports teams who
beat the teams they dislike, even when having no affiliation with either. I
imagine we won't hear much of this a few years down the line when 22s are
'trouncing' the rest.


Hmmm.. is that the 22 x F-22's ;-), you know its changing from a
silver bullet force to a Golden BB force..

I would imaging you'll hear it quite often as the very very few F-22
won't have time to play games.

Whats the latest? is it sub 200 yet?.

I imagine we won't hear much of this a few years down the line when
UCAV's are 'trouncing' the rest.

Cheers

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:05:44 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:30:34 -0600, "t_mark" wrote:

I love this aircraft. Look out world Typhoon is coming!"

This strikes me as very much like the people who love the sports teams who
beat the teams they dislike, even when having no affiliation with either. I
imagine we won't hear much of this a few years down the line when 22s are
'trouncing' the rest.


Hmmm.. is that the 22 x F-22's ;-), you know its changing from a
silver bullet force to a Golden BB force..

I would imaging you'll hear it quite often as the very very few F-22
won't have time to play games.

Whats the latest? is it sub 200 yet?.


Lowest "official" number I've heard is 276.



I imagine we won't hear much of this a few years down the line when
UCAV's are 'trouncing' the rest.

It will be a while before UCAVs are doing air to air.




Cheers

The comments are reportedly from Archie Neill (One of the BAE pilots
who instructs the Case White RAF pilots)

I don't want to disparage Mr. Neill, however, it would be in his own interest
for this incident to have occured no?

I still doubt there's any truth to it and my opinion isn't based on anything
more than my belief that the 4 F-15E crewmembers would not have been acting so
dangerously in willful disregard of regulations.




BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:36:33 +1100, John Cook
wrote:

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark
[snip]

[snip]
In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by
someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training.

I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no
reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding
superiority of the one or demise of the other.

Actually, the conclusion is quite simple. This is a report
that has been mislaid since December 1942.

The "fight" occurred when rowdy, young USAAF pilots, flying
their P-47 Thunderbolts were feeling their oats and bounced
some RAF Spitfires.

It was pretty clear that the P-47, and the 8th AF in general,
wasn't going to amount to much.


SMH

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the Brits made the decision to
save
money and not fit the 27MM mauser in the Typhoon. Wonder what they shot
the 15's with? did they have cameras?


"John Cook" wrote in message
...
Hi all


Just saw this and it peaked my interest..

"The New Air Superiority Benchmark

Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the
undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the
scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome
when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and
experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did
not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the
F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full
afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.

It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter
result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the
mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero
losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much
knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is
understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at
the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the
first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best
combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best
fighter in history.

But that is history now!

Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake
District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command,
the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have
been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation
of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what
they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated
evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government
level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority
against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication
that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the
right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the
future."


http://users.boardnation.com/~warpla...y;threadid=445


Cheers

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:01:09 -0600, "Rick Folkers"
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the Brits made the decision to
save
money and not fit the 27MM mauser in the Typhoon. Wonder what they shot
the 15's with? did they have cameras?

The first 55 RAF Typhoons will have the Cannon, The next tranches for
the RAF may have it, officially its been dropped!!, but some people
in the know seem to think differently.....

Wait for the tranche 2 negotiations to conclude within (if the
present rumours are true) the next 3-6 months.

Cheers

"John Cook" wrote:
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:01:09 -0600, "Rick Folkers"
wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought that the Brits made the decision
to
save
money and not fit the 27MM mauser in the Typhoon. Wonder what they shot
the 15's with? did they have cameras?

The first 55 RAF Typhoons will have the Cannon,

Only as ballast based on the current Government requirements.

The next tranches for
the RAF may have it, officially its been dropped!!, but some people
in the know seem to think differently.....

As ballast based on the current Government requirements.

Wait for the tranche 2 negotiations to conclude within (if the
present rumours are true) the next 3-6 months.

It will probably still be ballast because it will still be too expensive to
actually remove it from the design.