Student as PIC in IMC?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Teacherjh) wrote:


Every flight must have a PIC to ensure the safe conduct of the flight.
A
piece of hardware (autopilot) cannot fill this requirement.


Hmmm... what about RPVs? Who (if anybody) gets to log what, and why?

Every RPV has an "operator" (not sure what term they use) sitting at a
computer console somewhere (perhaps halfway around the world). My
understanding is that they do indeed get to log PIC time.

Nobody says the PIC has to be inside the aircraft :-)
Agreed. For instance the CFI watching his student do a solo. Also, a
Marine Predator pilot told me he had to be an Instrument Rated pilot --
we're all in the same air, he said.

The need for a PIC is in 91.3 (a): "The pilot in command of an aircraft is
directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of
that aircraft."

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message news:OUqtc.7918 Agreed. For instance the CFI
watching his student do a solo.

NO! A soloing student IS pilot in command. That's why they have a STUDENT PILOT
CERTIFICATE. If you look in part 61 you'll see it talks about what the student pilot
limitations on PIC is.

The need for a PIC is in 91.3 (a): "The pilot in command of an aircraft is
directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of
that aircraft."

And how can that be someone on the ground?

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"William W. Plummer" wrote in
message news:OUqtc.7918 Agreed. For instance the CFI
watching his student do a solo.

NO! A soloing student IS pilot in command. That's why they have a
STUDENT PILOT
CERTIFICATE. If you look in part 61 you'll see it talks about what the
student pilot
limitations on PIC is.

The need for a PIC is in 91.3 (a): "The pilot in command of an aircraft
is
directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of
that aircraft."

And how can that be someone on the ground?

I hope this works out because after 15 years in the tower that would give me
over 30,000 hours as PIC in I can't believe how many planes.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

However, the acting PIC must be required by the aircraft or operation to
be
a crew member in order for him to log PIC while not manipulating the
controls. A buddy just along for the ride may not log PIC, though the FAA
and everybody else may consider him to be acting PIC. There is one case of
an ATP who was considered to be PIC even though he was sleeping in the
back
seat of a light twin. A CFI and private pilot were actually sitting up
front. The airplane had an accident while the ATP was asleep, and the FAA
considered him to be PIC even though the ATP and both the other pilots
insisted he was not. He could not log the time, however, because he was
not
an essential crew member.

Scenario from real life: I fly with one of two partners in a Citation CJ1
which is rated for Single Pilot operations, or a Jetprop 1000. The flights
are all part 91. The partners are both SP rated in the CJ1. They're are
always (except two times when one was ill and didn't want to fly at all but
we had to be somewhere) in the left seat.

Question: What determines who is PIC, and when the other guys are PIC, what
do I log?

wrote in message
...
C J Campbell wrote:
: No. The regulations allow anyone to manipulate the controls for a part
91
: flight.

I cannot find that part of the regulation. Any coordinates?

You cannot find anything prohibiting it, either.

On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:50:11 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:

Scenario from real life: I fly with one of two partners in a Citation CJ1
which is rated for Single Pilot operations, or a Jetprop 1000. The flights
are all part 91. The partners are both SP rated in the CJ1. They're are
always (except two times when one was ill and didn't want to fly at all but
we had to be somewhere) in the left seat.


My answers assume you are rated in the aircraft and qualified to act as PIC
(and not as SP PIC).


Question: What determines who is PIC ...

An agreement between you and the other pilot.

and when the other guys are PIC, what do I log?

If you are manipulating the controls, you may log PIC.

If the pilot flying is wearing a view limiting device, and you are acting
as safety pilot, you may log PIC (if you two have agreed beforehand that
you will be the pilot responsible for the flight) or SIC.

I don't know if you would be qualified to log SIC in ordinary flying. I
don't know if the SP rated pilot can 'decide' whether or not to exercise
the privileges of that rating. If so, he could 'decide' not to exercise
them, which would make the flight regulations require a second pilot, in
which case you could log SIC time; otherwise you would not be able to log
anything.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Wed, 26 May 2004 12:18:06 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

So, it is possible for someone to log PIC flight time who has a pilot
certificate with ratings valid for the aircraft (e.g. PPSEL), but no BFR or current
medical if they were the sole manipulator of the controls? If that is the case, then
this person could go fly with a current pilot rated for the aircraft, and they both
log PIC... one as sole manipulator and one as the legal "acting as PIC".

Hrm... that sounds fishy, because it means whenever two pilots fly together,
they can both log all the time as PIC... whomever isn't physically flying can be
legally acting as PIC at the same time.

Nope.

There is no rule that allows the "legal" PIC to act as PIC except
where the regulations require more than one pilot. (Note: =not=
"another" pilot but "more than one" pilot. In the typical single
engine airplane, there is only one situation in which the regulations
require two pilots - simulated instrument conditions.

So in the two pilots flying scenario, the one who is flying the
airplane gets to write numbers in the PIC column in her logbook while
siting at his desk with a beer in her hand. The one who was in charge
does not.

Also, if that's true then I've got more high-performance/complex time than I
thought (sole manipulator without endorsement, buy flying with rated, endorsed pilot).

Yes you do.


Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:13:01 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Just curious where. Also, if a pilot takes a non-pilot flying, according to
FAR 61.51(e)(iii):

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on
which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or
the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

the pilot cannot log PIC time for the duration he/she is not physically manipulating
the controls? That's the way it would appear.

It would, under a strict reading. But (back to my "rules of logging")

==============================
Rule 4. Based on a unpublished 1977 Chief Counsel opinion (there is
some reasonable disagreement on whether it's any good), you may log
PIC if you are acting as PIC* and you are the only person on board
with the necessary aircraft ratings.

This is the answer to the silly question: "Can I log PIC while I let
my two year old fly the airplane?" Frankly, I can't imagine that the
FAA gives a hoot about this one way or another.
==============================

Here's the FAA Legal Opinion:

==============================
June 22, 1977

Mr. Thomas Beane

Dear Mr. Beane:

This letter is in response to your recent letters to the FAA Flight
Standards Service and to the Chief Counsel inquiring about the logging
of pilot-in-command (PIC) time by an airman whenever he is not the
sole manipulator of the controls.


Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defines Pilot in
Command as:

Pilot in command means the person who:

(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and
safety of the flight; (2) Has been designated as pilot in command
before or during the flight; and (3) Holds the appropriate category,
class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

Section 61.51(c)(2) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides, in
pertinent part:

(2) Pilot-in-Command flight time.

A private or commercial pilot may log as pilot in command time only
that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole
occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the
flight is conducted.

A pilot may log PIC time in accordance with Section 61.51(c)(2)(I)
when he is not actually "flying the airplane", if the airplane is one
on which more than one pilot is required under its type certificate or
under the regulations under which the flight is conducted and he is
acting as PIC. [i]Also, a pilot, rated in category and class (e.g.
airplane single-engine) could, as the pilot who "Has final authority
and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight" log PIC
time if another pilot, not appropriately rated, was actually
manipulating the controls of the aircraft.

It should be noted that more than one pilot may log PIC time for the
same flight time. For example, one pilot receiving instruction may
log PIC time in accordance with paragraph (c)(2)(I) for the time he is
designated PIC, and another pilot may log PIC time in accordance with
(c)(2)(iii) for the same time during which he is actually giving
flight instruction.

We hope that we have satisfactorily responded to your inquiry on the
proper logging of PIC time.

Sincerely,

ORIGINAL SIGNED BY EDWARD P. FABERMAN

for NEIL R. EISNER Acting Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations &
Enforcement Division Office of the Chief Counsel -
==============================


Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 May 2004 21:50:11 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:

Scenario from real life: I fly with one of two partners in a Citation CJ1
which is rated for Single Pilot operations, or a Jetprop 1000. The
flights
are all part 91. The partners are both SP rated in the CJ1. They're are
always (except two times when one was ill and didn't want to fly at all
but
we had to be somewhere) in the left seat.


My answers assume you are rated in the aircraft and qualified to act as
PIC
(and not as SP PIC).

Only the CJ requires a type rating. I'm rated, but not SP.



Question: What determines who is PIC ...

An agreement between you and the other pilot.

and when the other guys are PIC, what do I log?

If you are manipulating the controls, you may log PIC.

And otherwise? Co-pilot?, SIC, excited passenger?? :~)

AIUI, I can't logSIC since a SIC in not required for either the CJ or the
Jetprop. In any case, I can't since it's all part 91 oeprations. Is that
understanding correct?

If the pilot flying is wearing a view limiting device, and you are acting
as safety pilot, you may log PIC (if you two have agreed beforehand that
you will be the pilot responsible for the flight) or SIC.

No...they do that all at FS.

I don't know if you would be qualified to log SIC in ordinary flying. I
don't know if the SP rated pilot can 'decide' whether or not to exercise
the privileges of that rating. If so, he could 'decide' not to exercise
them, which would make the flight regulations require a second pilot, in
which case you could log SIC time; otherwise you would not be able to log
anything.

Thanks, Ron!!!



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Fri, 28 May 2004 08:38:49 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:

AIUI, I can't logSIC since a SIC in not required for either the CJ or the
Jetprop. In any case, I can't since it's all part 91 oeprations. Is that
understanding correct?

I believe so. AFAIK, you may only log SIC time if you are qualified to act
as SIC *and also* the flight requires two pilots based on either the type
certificate or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)