ANOTHER airspace incursion in D.C.?

In article XXSsb.191779$HS4.1608527@attbi_s01,
Jay Honeck wrote:
Why is Jay busting pilots chops for violoating pathetically poorly
announced
restrictions then? He was the one who came here bitching about the
incursions.

Because, according to the FAA, it's happened over 600 times now. Maybe we
can explain away the ignorance of the first 10. Hell, I'll even give you
the first 100.

But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

No wonder the general public thinks we're a bunch of air-headed rich boys.

How maybe times do people wonder into class B at say SFO? I'm actually
asking, I don't know. Don't forget that there are a lot of ways to
violate the ADIZ. Yeah it's poor but there have been at least 3
commerical flights that violated the the whitehouse airspace too (off the
top of my head).
Also 600 out of how many flights? 600/600 is pretty bad,
600/100,000,000,000 is pretty low (both are exterme examples ^_^).

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:XXSsb.191779$HS4.1608527@attbi_s01...

But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

It's not the same pilot 600 times. There's over 1000 times that many pilots.
And oviously their enforcement actions and public education isn't helping.

If there were only a couple of dozen violations that might be one thing, but the
fact that there are so many is indication that things are not working. Using an
irregularly shaped, non charted airspace is a real bone head. At least the FRZ
followed existing charted lines, even if one of them was the isagonic line.

"'Vejita' S. Cousin" wrote in message ...


How maybe times do people wonder into class B at say SFO? I'm actually
asking, I don't know. Don't forget that there are a lot of ways to
violate the ADIZ. Yeah it's poor but there have been at least 3
commerical flights that violated the the whitehouse airspace too (off the
top of my head).
Also 600 out of how many flights? 600/600 is pretty bad,
600/100,000,000,000 is pretty low (both are exterme examples ^_^).

Further, some of the "incursions" were aircraft that were legitmately inside
the airspace but tripped over a technical violation. ATC told some heading
for the edge of the airspace to "squawk VFR have a nice day" which is fine
if it was just ATC watching, but the airborne big brother will catch anybody
with a primary only return or squawking 1200. Another one was an aircraft
with a failed transponder.

but gosh, it's hard to miss a city.

Actually, it's quite rural around the boundaries of the DC ADIZ.

But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale

Well, something's broke. Maybe it's not the pilots? Last time I was in the DC
area ATC was talking about scrambling jets becuase a pilot was confused about
which code he was supposed to use (they gave him two - one at the start of the
flight for the ADIZ and one when he was approaching it)

I'd like to know how many terrorists were stopped by these intercepts.

It's real easy to sit on a high horse. But you make mistakes too. (and by
"you" I mean every reader here, including me) And the mistake you're most
likely to make next is the one you don't think you'll ever make because you
know better.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jay Honeck wrote:

But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

If you haven't flown through the area, you are not competent to comment on it.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale, and embarrassing.

If you haven't flown through the area, you are not competent to comment on
it.

Why?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 14 Nov 2003 00:21:07 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:

but gosh, it's hard to miss a city.

Actually, it's quite rural around the boundaries of the DC ADIZ.

Don't tell that to me. I live in this "rural" area under the edge of
the ADIZ and it's getting less so every day. Anyway, the boundaries
of the ADIZ are one thing, the boundaries of the FRZ within the ADIZ
are another.

I didn't write this next quote.
But 600? That's ineptitude on a grand scale

Well, something's broke. Maybe it's not the pilots? Last time I was in the DC
area ATC was talking about scrambling jets becuase a pilot was confused about
which code he was supposed to use (they gave him two - one at the start of the
flight for the ADIZ and one when he was approaching it)

What's broken is the assumption that ATC is staffed and equipped well
enough to handle the ADIZ and FRZ rules *reliably*. For that matter,
civil aviation in general isn't well equipped to handle this ignorant
bit of policy.

I'd like to know how many terrorists were stopped by these intercepts.

It's a Pink Elephant defense: Seen any Pink Elephants? No? Then it
must be working.

It's real easy to sit on a high horse. But you make mistakes too. (and by
"you" I mean every reader here, including me) And the mistake you're most
likely to make next is the one you don't think you'll ever make because you
know better.

As with anything, it's not the making of mistakes, it's the magnitude
of the mistake and how far you go before it is discovered. I won't
deny making mistakes. I've filed my share of ASRS reports. The
difference is that I am always looking for ways to cross check my
decisions. Hopefully, I won't go too far before I discover my
mistakes.

Folks, despite our best wishes, we can't go flying the way the we did
in the last century. Temporary restrictions are popping up all over
the place. Anyone who flies a cross country trip without previously
checking up on these things is just asking for trouble. This is a
mistake on par with not preflighting an aircraft before the first
flight of the day. To me, this is like forgetting to get dressed in
the morning before walking outdoors.

Anyway, for those of you who are not based anywhere near the DC ADIZ
here is my recommendation:

File IFR.

And if you don't have the rating, I strongly recommend you get one
before flying here. I say this because even if you're flying VFR in
the ADIZ, Potomac Approach doesn't care. You're still practically on
an IFR flight plan anyway, with none of the privileges or services an
IFR flight receives. Flying VFR, and navigating by landmarks in
particular, is just asking for trouble --unless you're based here and
are already very familiar with the area.

Sorry folks, that's the way it is. If you don't like it, please
complain to your congress critters. I have. I got a letter from
Senator Mikulski and a staggeringly ignorant form letter from Admiral
Loy. We aren't making enough noise about this issue. Until we do,
this aviation paranoia will get worse, not better.


Jake Brodsky,
PP ASEL IA, Cessna Cardinal N30946, Based @ FME
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:12:48 -0500, Jake Brodsky
wrote:

But, of course, knowing those cheerfully silly FAA planners, it'll
become a monster project with all sorts of overhead and maintenance,
it'll be designed for the next five decades of flight, and it'll cost
so much that it'll fall on the floor as too impractical.

Worse than that are the four FAA funded graphical TFR web sites:
http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/tfrmap.js...fr&zTfr=3/6719
https://www.tfrfaa.naimes.faa.gov/TfrFAA/
http://tfr.faa.gov/TFR/jsp/list.jsp
www.duats.com

It's the old "man with two watches" conundrum; when the graphical data
one site conflicts with that on another, the utility of the graphical
representation is lost, and the pilot is set up for a fall.

Anyway, for those of you who are not based anywhere near the DC ADIZ
here is my recommendation:

File IFR.



Yeah, that's the "safe" way. But having done it VFR (to Gaithersberg) I can
say VFR is not a big deal. Just be sure to get your squawk code before
entering. If you're on flight following, that makes it easier. If you popped
up (like from 1500 feet), do so eariler rather than later, to give them time to
screw up and fix it again.


As with anything, it's not the making of mistakes, it's the magnitude
of the mistake and how far you go before it is discovered.


Yes. But in this case, the "magnitude" of the mistake is artificially inflated
by the stupid system. It still falls on the pilot, but let there be no mistake
here - if the rules said that pilots had to wiggle their wings three times and
toss a carrot out the window before gaining admittance to the zone, not doing
so would be an "equally" big mistake. For the same inane reason.


This is a
mistake on par with not preflighting an aircraft before the first
flight of the day. To me, this is like forgetting to get dressed in
the morning before walking outdoors.


Not preflighting can get you killed due to the laws of physics. Not getting
dressed (at least on a nice day) has no consequences other than the arbitrary
and artificial ones society imposes. Ditto this %@*$ TFR situation.

There is a difference.

What's broken is the assumption that ATC is staffed...

What's broken is the assumption that this really DOES stop pink elephants.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message ...

File IFR.

IFR won't protect you from the FRZ by the way.