We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

#popcorn

;-)

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:40:36 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
Oh, Andy. Are you still sore with me because I called your boyfriend's rules ugly?

At 02:43 16 March 2017, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:

;940545 Wrote:
What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable
price.
$150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for
mos
people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half
tha
price!

The PW-5 was a terrible failure. The engineers made the
wingspan to
short, without a common T-tail and failed to have the gear
retract.

What we really need is something that looks like an ASW-19
bare bone
that is brand new for $25,000.

It needs to have only the basics:
-15 meter wingspan
-T-tail
-Retractable landing gear
-Hinged canopy
-Airspeed
-Altimeter
-Basic VSI (no audio)
-Tube trailer
-Mag compass

With a basic tube trailer similar.

If the PW-5 can be made for around that price, so could
something lik
this.

Just to get a basic sailplane for $25,000 that has a 35:1 to
40:1 glid
ratio, pilots could once again afford this sport and it would be
on
less reason for pilots to not get into soaring.

Cheap launch is more important than somebody selling a new
sailplane fo
$25k. Until winch launch becomes wide spread, as it is in
Germany, yo
can kiss this sport goodbye. It will never totally die out but it wil
atrophy to near nothing. That's a fact. Aero tows are simply to
expensive




--
gotovkotzepkoi

They have winch launching in Europe -there is still a decline in
numbers. Interestingly in the UK there as been a strong move for a
lot of clubs to use the 100/115hp Eurofox for towing -halving the
cost of a tow and being more environmentally acceptable -even
clubs that where solely winch based before now have a Eurofox.

As for the general decline -I don't think their is a one stop solution
- there is a lot more competition for peoples leisure time and
generally in the west I believe over the last 10-20 years for the
average working joe 'disposal income and time for leisure' has been
on the decline. The thing is is to look at the successful growing (or
not declining as rapidly clubs) and see what they are doing.

Cost is not a problem of gliding. You can buy decent used glider for 10-20k and now matter how much you fly, annual aerotows do not cost thousands. All these costs are comparable and in line with other middle-aged men hobbies such as owning motorcycle, classic car or boat.

Problem of gliding is that it is horrible time-consuming and difficult.

On 14/03/2017 14:09, wrote:

What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price.
$150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most
people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half
that price!

Lots of people have explained why this is not going to happen. But maybe
I can suggest an alternative.

Set up a company that makes simple affordable, practical closed
trailers, rigging aids, tow out aids, radios, flarm kit, loggers and
instruments. Parachutes too while you are about it. It is essential that
as much as possible should be standardised, with "entry level" feature
set and mass produced.

Then set your self up selling "refurb kits" for all the 2nd hand gliders
that are quietly rotting away in storage, with rusty and/or home made
trailers, radios etc that no longer meet today's standards, parachutes
that are time ex and lacking flarm, GPS and loggers etc.

While you are about it, set up a factory with cheap labour to refinish
those gliders in 2 part polyurethane.

Your new ships will still require all of the above. Irrespective whether
you start with a new magically cheap airframe, or a proven 2nd hand one,
you still need all of the above.

Wonder if the 2/3 of new gliders being self launchers is going to take resources away from club launching assets? If the majority of club members own self launchers will the club go extinct?

Cheap launch is more important than somebody selling a new sailplane for
$25k. Until winch launch becomes wide spread, as it is in Germany, you
can kiss this sport goodbye. It will never totally die out but it will
atrophy to near nothing. That's a fact. Aero tows are simply too
expensive.




--
gotovkotzepkoi

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 10:43:08 AM UTC+3, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
;940545 Wrote:
What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price.
$150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most
people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half that
price!

The PW-5 was a terrible failure. The engineers made the wingspan too
short, without a common T-tail and failed to have the gear retract.

What we really need is something that looks like an ASW-19 bare bones
that is brand new for $25,000.

It needs to have only the basics:
-15 meter wingspan
-T-tail
-Retractable landing gear
-Hinged canopy
-Airspeed
-Altimeter
-Basic VSI (no audio)
-Tube trailer
-Mag compass

With a basic tube trailer similar.

If the PW-5 can be made for around that price, so could something like
this.

Just to get a basic sailplane for $25,000 that has a 35:1 to 40:1 glide
ratio, pilots could once again afford this sport and it would be one
less reason for pilots to not get into soaring.

Cheap launch is more important than somebody selling a new sailplane for
$25k. Until winch launch becomes wide spread, as it is in Germany, you
can kiss this sport goodbye. It will never totally die out but it will
atrophy to near nothing. That's a fact. Aero tows are simply too
expensive.

It would be interesting to know the true cost of winch launch.

During my absence in Europe, my club in NZ has sold the pawnee and bought a new winch. They're currently charging exactly the same (NZ$45, about 30 EUR/USD) for a winch launch as it previously cost for a 1500 ft tow.

The aerotow prices were adjusted over decades of experience to fairly accurately account for all fixed and variable costs, periodic engine overhauls, replacing the fabric etc and make the towing operation a self-contained break-even cost centre within the club.

I'm *hoping* that charging the same for the winch will result in the US$120k or so of member loans to buy the winch being paid off in three or five years, leaving an asset with many decades of life and low running costs, and that launch prices will then be reduced. A lot. I don't know how much. It's only a bit more than six months since the winch went into real production use.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:50:02 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

It would be interesting to know the true cost of winch launch.

Last year we charged GBP 11 for a winch launch. IIRC which launches have
a small tug subsidy included in that charge.

We do a lot of winching: our winches are used every flying day provided
bad weather doesn't cause cancellation. That is 5 days/week in winter and
7 days/week in summer.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 5:28:14 AM UTC-4, Ian wrote:
On 14/03/2017 14:09, wrote:

What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price.
$150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most
people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half
that price!

Lots of people have explained why this is not going to happen. But maybe
I can suggest an alternative.

Set up a company that makes simple affordable, practical closed
trailers, rigging aids, tow out aids, radios, flarm kit, loggers and
instruments. Parachutes too while you are about it. It is essential that
as much as possible should be standardised, with "entry level" feature
set and mass produced.

Then set your self up selling "refurb kits" for all the 2nd hand gliders
that are quietly rotting away in storage, with rusty and/or home made
trailers, radios etc that no longer meet today's standards, parachutes
that are time ex and lacking flarm, GPS and loggers etc.

While you are about it, set up a factory with cheap labour to refinish
those gliders in 2 part polyurethane.

Your new ships will still require all of the above. Irrespective whether
you start with a new magically cheap airframe, or a proven 2nd hand one,
you still need all of the above.


There is a tremendous amount of cost and labor involved in refinishing a glider. more than most realize. if you haven't done one start to finish, you don't know... doing a total refinish on old gliders is a good idea, but the cost of the refinish makes that concept difficult if the air-frame isn't worth much anyway. perfect example: it's not profitable to buy a standard cirrus for 14k, pump 5-7K worth of materials into it (not to mention labor, which is also several thousand.) and then sell it for 22k (the going rate for a pristine one.) it's a losing proposition. these gliders are anywhere from 30 to almost 50 years old. it can be profitable if you do it yourself, as a sole proprietor, but as soon as you have to pay people, the profit margin gets chipped away, and most (if not all) goes to the employees.

there's lots of economies-of-scale stuff that goes into building cheap cars.. Phil nailed it mostly. i think someone really visionary with an automotive or aerospace composite manufacturing background, and alot of capital could do something impressive. but again, the demand to support moderate production isn't there. it goes back to the cirrus example. these gliders have long life cycles.
i don't think price, and supply and demand of gliders is the issue, i think it's supply and demand of pilots. unfortunately it's a pretty unique game we play. it consumes time, and money, and gets you strange looks at the office when you don't know whose playing in the superbowl, but you know who won the last WGC, and where the next one is.

i think in order to grow the sport one of the things that would help would be wider media exposure. also, you have to make it sexy. many pilots look seriously dorky. sorry, but we suck at being fashionable. watch a redbull airrace, those pilots are wearing cool looking "decalized" helmets, firesuits, gloves, et cet. it has sex appeal. it looks dangerous and exciting. i'm not suggesting we wear firesuits, that's stupid. but we wear floppy hats and grimy button down shirts. it's just not sexy to the casual observer. so it doesn't get a ton of attention, so it doesn't attract a lot of enthusiasm the way that nascar, dirtbike racing, or indy does.

the equipment is sufficient. it's marketing and drawing attention to our sport.
on the club side, there has to be a huge social component to build cohesion..

TL,DR;

We need more pilots, not more gliders
soaring is not sexy
clubs need to be as much social, as they are aviation.

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 2:59:28 PM UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:50:02 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

It would be interesting to know the true cost of winch launch.

Last year we charged GBP 11 for a winch launch. IIRC which launches have
a small tug subsidy included in that charge.

We do a lot of winching: our winches are used every flying day provided
bad weather doesn't cause cancellation. That is 5 days/week in winter and
7 days/week in summer.

That's NZ$20. I hope that's where the charge will be in five years.

In fact you can already get winch launches for $30 each (17 GBP) if you pay for 40 of them in advance (which must be used within two years).

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 06:39:04 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 2:59:28 PM UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 03:50:02 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

It would be interesting to know the true cost of winch launch.

Last year we charged GBP 11 for a winch launch. IIRC which launches
have a small tug subsidy included in that charge.

We do a lot of winching: our winches are used every flying day provided
bad weather doesn't cause cancellation. That is 5 days/week in winter
and 7 days/week in summer.

That's NZ$20. I hope that's where the charge will be in five years.

In fact you can already get winch launches for $30 each (17 GBP) if you
pay for 40 of them in advance (which must be used within two years).

The only way I can think of to get a better cost estimate that asking
round is to total costs over a year and divide that by the number of
launches. Here's quick guess at what needs to be included:

- one set of new Spectra cables (or two if using steel)
- the cost of strops lost
- fuel used
- items consumed in routine maintenance
- any external maintenance costs
- depreciation, interest on loans, etc

I've probably missed some items, such as a share of the operating cost of
the tow vehicle used to move the winch round the airfield, but hopefully
that list is a reasonable starting point for anybody wanting to calculate
actual winch costs.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |