We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price. $150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half that price!

The PW-5 was a terrible failure. The engineers made the wingspan too short, without a common T-tail and failed to have the gear retract.

What we really need is something that looks like an ASW-19 bare bones that is brand new for $25,000.

It needs to have only the basics:
-15 meter wingspan
-T-tail
-Retractable landing gear
-Hinged canopy
-Airspeed
-Altimeter
-Basic VSI (no audio)
-Tube trailer
-Mag compass

With a basic tube trailer similar.

If the PW-5 can be made for around that price, so could something like this.

Just to get a basic sailplane for $25,000 that has a 35:1 to 40:1 glide ratio, pilots could once again afford this sport and it would be one less reason for pilots to not get into soaring.

Agreed! I would love to see this.

However it seems the used marketplace is overflowing with good gliders at reasonable prices even less than $25,000. Why aren't more pilots buying these ships?

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 8:49:51 AM UTC-4, Pete wrote:
Agreed! I would love to see this.

However it seems the used marketplace is overflowing with good gliders at reasonable prices even less than $25,000. Why aren't more pilots buying these ships?

What's needed is a more affordable AS-K21 and more affordable launching.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 3:49:51 PM UTC+3, Pete wrote:
Agreed! I would love to see this.

However it seems the used marketplace is overflowing with good gliders at reasonable prices even less than $25,000. Why aren't more pilots buying these ships?

That indicates a declining membership.

You can never grow the sport with a limited supply of 30 year old used gliders. To have any hope of growing you need reasonably priced new machines.

The Hph 304 is the right kind of idea, but it's still $90000+.

However it seems the used marketplace is overflowing with good gliders at
reasonable prices even less than $25,000. Why aren't more pilots buying
these ships?

Been pondering the same question ever since 1st-generation glass and I showed
up on the soaring scene at roughly the same time...

Elsewhere in the thread others have cogently commented on factors impacting
current-production costs and (non-)growth of soaring, so below is an
off-the-top-of-my-head list of possible contributors specifically to the above
question:

- human nature (the common perception that newer is always better)
- ignorance (who systemically touts older ships?)
- Fear/Uncertainty/Doubt (old = structurally dodgy; lousy performance; higher
maintenance costs; harder to fly; etc.)

As a cheap, low-use-impact, non-greenie, cost/mission-driven weirdo myself, I
suppose with the money not spent over the years required to maintain "the
latest and greatest things" in my toy collection, I could've eventually
splurged on today's latest Gee-WhizBang Mark IV self-launching international
record breaker, but no way could that have been possible throughout all of my
soaring participation.

Bob W.

Where do I send in my deposit?

I'm sorry, but your statements are ridiculous. Please, go ahead, knock yourself out and prove this model.

If you actually believe that your new business idea...

Let's call it "Magical Flying Unicorn Sailplanes" by Wilber" shall we?

....is a viable concept (dirt cheap sailplanes?), please, teach us. Start that company. Start producing 25k sailplanes and prove to the world that all current manufacturers are greedy robbers and that we are all idiots for paying their market price. I have no doubt the sailplane that you describe would sell (at 25k). But show us that you can make a profit (I wish you could see the smile on my face right now). Show us that you can stay in business for a year producing and selling dozens of these "Magic Unicorn 15m's!".

Design it
Tool it
Build the prototype
Test it
Refine it
Re-tool it
Certify it
Hire your employees - pay for their healthcare and benefits
Train them
Retain them
Lease the building
Heat the building, Cool the building
Deal with the EPA
Deal with OSHA
By the supplies
Market it,
Sell it
Support it
Warranty it
Pay all the regulatory fees and taxes, etc., etc., etc.

ALL FOR 25k A POP! :-) Good luck!

This would change the game (like...magic!). I honestly do hope you can succeed. But, sadly, its just not going to happen, even for 100k, especially in the USA, and even you know it.

Last I checked, a 14-foot sailboat (think Sunfish) was almost $20,000 USD.

You can thank your previous President (sorry, community organizer) and his 10 Trillion in new US Federal debt (an increase of 100% in 8 years). Now, interest rates (near zero for eight years now) are starting to normalize. That sailboat above (worth 10k eight years ago) will be up to 25k in 5 years. Even a 13.5m Silent is 120k.

I look forward to you showing us that I am wrong.






On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 8:09:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price. $150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half that price!

The PW-5 was a terrible failure. The engineers made the wingspan too short, without a common T-tail and failed to have the gear retract.

What we really need is something that looks like an ASW-19 bare bones that is brand new for $25,000.

It needs to have only the basics:
-15 meter wingspan
-T-tail
-Retractable landing gear
-Hinged canopy
-Airspeed
-Altimeter
-Basic VSI (no audio)
-Tube trailer
-Mag compass

With a basic tube trailer similar.

If the PW-5 can be made for around that price, so could something like this.

Just to get a basic sailplane for $25,000 that has a 35:1 to 40:1 glide ratio, pilots could once again afford this sport and it would be one less reason for pilots to not get into soaring.

Sean and Wilbur arguing is priceless... :-D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FR_76LZVNw

9B

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 6:38:10 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
Where do I send in my deposit?

I'm sorry, but your statements are ridiculous. Please, go ahead, knock yourself out and prove this model.

If you actually believe that your new business idea...

Let's call it "Magical Flying Unicorn Sailplanes" by Wilber" shall we?

Oh, Andy. Are you still sore with me because I called your boyfriend's rules ugly?


On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 8:13:39 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
Sean and Wilbur arguing is priceless... :-D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FR_76LZVNw

9B

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 6:38:10 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
Where do I send in my deposit?

I'm sorry, but your statements are ridiculous. Please, go ahead, knock yourself out and prove this model.

If you actually believe that your new business idea...

Let's call it "Magical Flying Unicorn Sailplanes" by Wilber" shall we?

#popcorn

;-)

On Wednesday, March 15, 2017 at 7:40:36 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
Oh, Andy. Are you still sore with me because I called your boyfriend's rules ugly?

That topic comes up every 8 years or so, mostly driven by people how have no idea where the cost for airplanes comes from.

You have the materials cost, which you can limit by staying away from carbon fiber.
You have to amortise setup cost (development, tooling, certification). You can reduce this by taking over an old design, as ASW19 or LS4.
You need to pay the labor. That's about 150 hours for a streamlined production. It does not vary with the performance of the glider, but it does vary with the surcae.
You need to pay overhead.
You need to make profit.

There is no way that this would sum up anyway near $25.000.

And then you would have to sell it, and compete against tons of pre-owned gliders which are in the $25k-40k range, can be flown tomorrow, are at about 10-20% of their lifetime potential and are in the 35-40:1 range.

The most recent try on this was to set up a production of LS4's in Eastern Europe (with Eastern Europe wages), when Rolladen-Schneider went belly up.
Nobody ordered.

From what I see, money is not the reason for declining numbers of pilots. Its the countless possibilities for instant-gratification-activities, some of which are significantly more expensive than flying a whole season in a club's Discus or LS4.

Le mardi 14 mars 2017 13:09:32 UTC+1, a écritÂ*:
What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price. $150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half that price!

The PW-5 was a terrible failure. The engineers made the wingspan too short, without a common T-tail and failed to have the gear retract.

What we really need is something that looks like an ASW-19 bare bones that is brand new for $25,000.

It needs to have only the basics:
-15 meter wingspan
-T-tail
-Retractable landing gear
-Hinged canopy
-Airspeed
-Altimeter
-Basic VSI (no audio)
-Tube trailer
-Mag compass

With a basic tube trailer similar.

If the PW-5 can be made for around that price, so could something like this.

Just to get a basic sailplane for $25,000 that has a 35:1 to 40:1 glide ratio, pilots could once again afford this sport and it would be one less reason for pilots to not get into soaring.