Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

Mxsmanic wrote:

Sam Spade writes:


Yes, I recall it also being to keep jets from flying level in "Indian
Country."


What is "Indian Country"?

Where Apaches, Aztecs, Commanches, and Cherokees roam.

Sam Spade wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise


Like 727's?

The 707s (especially the non-fan models) the same type of DC-8, and the
Convair 880 were the really bad noise makers. 727s and early DC-9s were
not quite so loud on low-level flight.

This might be my age and lack of experience showing. G

I always think of 727's as being very loud. Whenever I'm sitting in my
plane at larger fields, I can always tell I'm hearing a 2-7 on takeoff
roll before I even see it. It's got a very recognizable "thunder"
that's missing from most other airliners. To me, the 2-7's sound is as
distinctive as the C5's whine.

B A R R Y writes:

I always think of 727's as being very loud.

They are. Even the APU (or whatever they call it) is extremely noisy.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

IIRC fuel conservation, to avoid leveling off prior to the dump zone and to
minimize exposure to lower performance aircraft.
Al

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
Newps wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise then the
Stage III birds today.





The primary purpose was fuel efficiency.

That isn't my recollection, at least not the first iteration that probably
happened before you went to work in aviation. ;-)

Once again IIRC the majority of NMACs occurred within 25 miles of the
destination airport and at 10,000 and below.
Al


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...
B A R R Y wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise


Like 727's?

The 707s (especially the non-fan models) the same type of DC-8, and the
Convair 880 were the really bad noise makers. 727s and early DC-9s were
not quite so loud on low-level flight.

What the original program did was try to keep arrivals high enough so
level offs did not have to occur below 6,000 feet, agl. It was the spool
up of the engines at say 3,000 to 4,000 feet on "downwind" that spread
noise all over town.

The above 10,000 program for fuel came along later.

Sam Spade wrote:
Jim Carter wrote:


That isn't my recollection, at least not the first iteration that
probably happened before you went to work in aviation. ;-)



My recollection neither. I believe it was for noise abatement and to
help sort out the big iron from the little aluminum.


Yes, I recall it also being to keep jets from flying level in "Indian
Country." That came about because of the TWA DC-9/Baron midair, (1967)
which happened when the DC-9 was flying a short leg at 8,000.

That was also a reason. The FAA does not get involved in creating
procedures for noise abatement. That is local. Noise abatement
procedures are forced onto ATC by the local authorities and generally
apply to departures only. Very few places have any noise procedures for
arrivals.

Newps wrote:

The FAA does not get involved in creating
procedures for noise abatement. That is local. Noise abatement
procedures are forced onto ATC by the local authorities and generally
apply to departures only. Very few places have any noise procedures for
arrivals.

New IAPs have to have an environmental review. When required, and
feasible, segments are adjusted to minimize noise impact. Same for
SIDs. The FAA does this every day in OKC.

Mxsmanic wrote:

B A R R Y writes:


I always think of 727's as being very loud.


They are. Even the APU (or whatever they call it) is extremely noisy.


Well, the 727 APU cannot be used in flight.

I don't know where your expertise on 727s comes from, but I know where
mine comes from and the 727 was relatively quiet compared to most other
airline airplanes at its time of entering service.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Spade ]
Posted At: Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:09 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

....

I don't know where your expertise on 727s comes from, but I know where
mine comes from and the 727 was relatively quiet compared to most
other
airline airplanes at its time of entering service.

Agreed Sam, but MS is apparently quite a bit younger than either of us
so has no good basis for comparison.

Similar to his view regarding the flight simulator program being
comparable to actual flight, he has no real basis for comparison so he
uses his experience as a baseline.

Jim Carter wrote:


-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Spade ]
Posted At: Thursday, January 04, 2007 7:09 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents


...

I don't know where your expertise on 727s comes from, but I know where
mine comes from and the 727 was relatively quiet compared to most

other

airline airplanes at its time of entering service.


Agreed Sam, but MS is apparently quite a bit younger than either of us
so has no good basis for comparison.

Similar to his view regarding the flight simulator program being
comparable to actual flight, he has no real basis for comparison so he
uses his experience as a baseline.


Point well taken and understandable with respect to the 727. But for
anyone to assert they know how airplanes fly based on being an MSFS
jockey, well that crosses over the line.