Gliders and Transponders......again.

Derek Copeland wrote:
I happen to know that tests on a lightweight, low powered transponder for
hang gliders and paragliders proved unsuccessful, because most of the RF
output was being absorbed by their pilots' bodies! Ground radar and TCAS
where unable to detect these aircraft at any significant distance at all.

Those are not the transponders that would be installed in your glider,
so it's not clear to me what your point is.

Are you worried about running into a paraglider because it doesn't have
transponder?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Jan 19, 6:45*pm, Derek Copeland wrote:
So do the many wooden and vintage gliders still flying have TNs from their
manufacturers for fitting Mode S transponders then? Somehow I rather doubt
it!

Derek C *

At 00:15 20 January 2009, Big Wings wrote:



Schempp-Hirth has TNs for transponders as well - permitting three
different
antenna types - blade, rod or bendy.

The new Trig Avionics TT21 transponder, with built-in altitude encoder
is
estimated by the makers to consume 320 mA from a 12 V battery when busy.
Assuming the 7Ah battery is only delivering 50% of nominal capacity this
equates to 10 hours continuous use.

The controller that needs to be accessed by the pilot is 6.4 x 4.5 x 4.5
cm, the transponder itself can be installed anywhere convenient in the
glider so will fit most gliders. *(And I don't have an interest in it.)

At 22:47 19 January 2009, brianDG303 wrote:
On Jan 19, 10:18=A0am, Chris Reed *wrote:

Second, installation can only be done, as I understand it, if either
(a)
the manufacture has issued an approved scheme for installation
(Ibelieve none have,

--------------------------------------------------------------------

DG has a TN for the installation, probably others do as well, but you
have to dig a bit for it.

I agree that the power issue might not be that important. Selecting a
lower current encoder (ACK?) can help. For my installation I installed
wiring for a second battery but am waiting to see if it's really
needed. It might only be required for unusually long flights, and in
those cases might be avoided by using a 'load shedding' check list-
by
using the back-up battery in the vario, shifting the PDA to it's
internal battery, and avoiding idle chatter on the radio you get some
extra hours.

Well Schleicher has a TM concerning the installation of a transponder
for my Ka-6

http://alexander-schleicher.de/tm/06/060_TM24_D.pdf

Still doesn't address the cost issue though

Pete

My guess is that, sooner or later, airspace class E will be split into
two. E1 will be just like current E, and a transponder will be
necessary to enter class E2. We could expect class E2 to be
established wherever there is a high probability of encountering jet
traffic.

And we might find it worthwhile to actually support the change.

The point is that in the UK the CAA want everything that flies to carry
Mode S Transponders, including gliders, hang gliders, paragliders and even
balloons (as if they are not easy enough to see and avoid!). The low power
transponder units were suggested as a possible solution for gliders, but
these were found to be ineffective and a possible health hazard.

There is no problem (apart from cost) in fitting Mode S transponders to
conventional powered, metal skinned light aircraft. It's a much bigger
problem for microlights and unpowered aircraft.

Derek C


At 04:12 20 January 2009, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Derek Copeland wrote:
I happen to know that tests on a lightweight, low powered transponder
for
hang gliders and paragliders proved unsuccessful, because most of the
RF
output was being absorbed by their pilots' bodies! Ground radar and
TCAS
where unable to detect these aircraft at any significant distance at
all.

Those are not the transponders that would be installed in your glider,
so it's not clear to me what your point is.

Are you worried about running into a paraglider because it doesn't have

transponder?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at
www.motorglider.org

Regarding the " possible health hazard".

The UK Health Protection Agency's Radiation Protection Division published
the results of a study into the health risks associated with transponders
for use in light aircraft, gliders balloons and microlights in September
2007:
http://tinyurl.com/9aptc3

They concluded that as long as the antenna of an 80 W peak power
transponder was at least 10cm from the pilot that the exposure level was
within the Public permitted limits now, and those expected in 2020. This
was a conservative opinion and in reality they thought that about half
that distance would be safe. One result of this report was that the CAA
dropped their idea of pilots carrying portable transponders on ther laps
which would not have been safe.

As long as the antenna is a 'reasonable' distance from the pilot with
the necessary ground plane between pilot and antenna the exposure will be
much less than that assumed in the report.

Which part of their report do you disagree with?

By the way I don't want to have to fit a transponder to my glider because
of cost and space etc - so I'm on the same side, but we have to argue
based on facts and if we still think that there is a health risk we have
to challenge the above report that basically says there is not.


At 07:45 20 January 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
The point is that in the UK the CAA want everything that flies to carry
Mode S Transponders, including gliders, hang gliders, paragliders and
even
balloons (as if they are not easy enough to see and avoid!). The low
power
transponder units were suggested as a possible solution for gliders, but
these were found to be ineffective and a possible health hazard.

On Jan 19, 1:18*pm, Chris Reed wrote:
Second, installation can only be done, as I understand it, if either (a)
the manufacture has issued an approved scheme for installation (I
believe none have, other than for motor gliders), or (b) if you pay an
installer to produce a formal modification scheme (fees) and then pay
our CAA substantial "major modification" fees to have the scheme approved..

Lange gliders have transponder antenna mount built-in, and
most are delivered with antenna and wiring installed with
transponder... Includes Antares 18 pure glider...

At 22:08 19 January 2009, Darryl Ramm wrote:

If this really worries you
in a fiberglass (not carbon) or wood glider have the installer add
some extra adhesive ground plane material (more than the normal ground
plane) around the antenna or under your seat.

Or just wear your tinfoil shorts.

Jim Beckman

Hi,

I contacted Trig regarding the availability of their new TT21 in the USA.
Their response is below.

"Thank you for your interest in the TT21, the worlds smallest and lightest
Mode S transponder which also features ADS-B Out by the way, at no extra
cost. We probably will get certification for the TT21 for the US in April,
although I should warn you that the certification process is a long one, and
final approval dates are not completely in our control."



I plan to sell them in the USA if possible.

http://www.trig-avionics.com/tt21.html



Good Soaring,


Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

On Jan 20, 9:05*am, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Hi,

I contacted Trig regarding the availability of their new TT21 in the USA.
Their response is below.

"Thank you for your interest in the TT21, the worlds smallest and lightest
Mode S transponder which also features ADS-B Out by the way, at no extra
cost. We probably will get certification for the TT21 for the US in April,
although I should warn you that the certification process is a long one, and
final approval dates are not completely in our control."

I plan to sell them in the USA if possible.

http://www.trig-avionics.com/tt21.html

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

Looks like a neat unit. Any info on the cost though???

Pete

On Jan 18, 12:16*am, 309 wrote:
Did the geese in New York have transponders?

Actually the geese did show up on radar according to the NTSB
interview with the controller. Geese show up on ATC's radar often,
especially when in large flocks. Unfortunately, these geese popped up
on the radar scope just a few seconds before the Airbus was struck by
them. Anytime I'm at the controls, and the ATC controller says they
are picking up a return on a likely groups of birds, I turn the
continuous ignition on, just incase we ingest alot of them, it wont
flame out the engines. Seem's to be common practice with most people
I've flown with over my 9 years in the airlines.

Back to transponders. I can't tell you how many of my friends have
had near misses going into Elmira, NY. At each city my airline flies
to, which is around 130 destinations, I have had the training
department put into our charts that their is high glider traffic in
"X" area, between these radials and DME's ie. I think transponders
are a must, especially if you are flying in Wave or higher thermals.
Down in the ridges, or thermals only going to 3-4000 feet, I don't
think it will help much.

I plan on putting a transponder in my sailplane soon. I think it will
be a good safety investment. Along with an extra battery for it.