to HSI or not to HSI

wrote in message
...


You (1) look at the OBS, (2) select a heading on the needle side
that provides the intercept angle you desire, and (3) fly that
heading. You willl intercept the course on that angle.

You are referring to the situation where a VOR is used to find one's
position, i.e. establishing an initial course to a VOR.

I am referring instead to the more common situation where a pilot is flying
an instrument approach and needs to stay on course. In that situation,
there is a 2-step process, i.e. look at the needle and adjust track in that
direction (normal sensing) or opposite that direction (reverse sensing).

Only because of the law of primacy. It is not MUCH easier, in fact it
is more complex because of the mental processing required, and it is
certainly not safer. I have seen too many pilots reverse course and
fly away from their desired approach course because they kept turning
right or left when the needle didn't start to center.

Again, let's discuss instrument approaches. If a pilot does a 180 on an
instrument approach then there are much more important issues at play than
CDI interpretation paradigms.

How would you know this? You have obviously never used the method, so
you have no basis to make this statement.

Why is this "obvious"?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan

wrote in message
news

It's a real simple concept, however, simpler really than "reverse
sensing" by a a lot. Anyone can learn it, and it takes the guesswork
out of the equation.

If we accept for the moment that your observation is correct, then how does
a pilot know when to activate the reverse-sense button on an autopilot?
Most autopilots seem to make the same "error" as most pilots in using the
"forward" vs. "reverse" sensing paradigm.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

What mental math? You look at the needle, determine what sector it is in,
then look at the chart and matchi it up. There is no math - you just match
a pattern of shaded or unshaded. I don't understand your objection about it
being difficult.

You don't need to know where you are, you need to know what to do. (not that situation awareness is not important, but when on final what you need to
know is whether to scooch left or right, or to scooch down or up. (or equivalently, if you are right or left of course, and high or low of the
glideslope).

With your approach, you know where you are, but you don't know what to do, until you figure out where you're pointed, and how that lies with respect
to where you should be pointed. It's not "difficult", but it does take more cycles, and those cycles might be needed elsewhere. Not usually, but
every now and then, and that's when you get bit.

What would be nice (and you can fudge this yourself) is a note on the CDI that says "BACKWARDS", just as a reminder when your cycles get used up.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
news:1100570202.0vj8752dnaoz5yN9HC14CA@teranews...


wrote in message
news

It's a real simple concept, however, simpler really than "reverse
sensing" by a a lot. Anyone can learn it, and it takes the guesswork
out of the equation.

If we accept for the moment that your observation is correct, then how
does a pilot know when to activate the reverse-sense button on an
autopilot? Most autopilots seem to make the same "error" as most pilots
in using the "forward" vs. "reverse" sensing paradigm.

There is no reverse sensing. Look at a localizer approach - front or back
course. On the Nav head picture the left side of the indication to mean you
are in the blue sector (shaded) and the right side to mean you are in the
yellow (unshaded) sector. You just turn to intercept the center of the
course. There is no reverse, back, forward, etc. No math involved, no
switch, nothing, just consistent application of the same idea regardless of
Front course, back course, discourse, datcourse, ass course...





--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

There is no reverse sensing. Look at a localizer approach - front or back
course. On the Nav head picture the left side of the indication to mean you
are in the blue sector (shaded) and the right side to mean you are in the
yellow (unshaded) sector. You just turn to intercept the center of the
course. There is no reverse, back, forward, etc. No math involved, no
switch, nothing, just consistent application of the same idea regardless of
Front course, back course, discourse, datcourse, ass course...

But the plane's steering wheel just goes left and right, not blue and yellow. And my charts are in black and white.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Richard Hertz" no one@no one.com wrote in message
t...


There is no reverse sensing. Look at a localizer approach - front or back

I say again... when using an autopilot to fly a localizer or localizer
backcourse approach, using your technique how does one intuitively know to
push the reverse-sense button so that the autopilot nav mode will operate
properly.

Many autopilots require the "reverse" or "backcourse" button to be pushed
when flying the frontcourse outbound or when flying the backcourse inbound.

You can argue all you want that there is "no such thing" as reverse sensing,
but the fact is that this button exists on many autopilots and such an
autopilot cannot fly a full localizer approach in nav mode without
activating the reverse button for part of the approach and deactivating the
button for part of the approach.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Jose" wrote in message
. com...
What mental math? You look at the needle, determine what sector it is
in, then look at the chart and matchi it up. There is no math - you just
match a pattern of shaded or unshaded. I don't understand your objection
about it being difficult.

You don't need to know where you are, you need to know what to do. (not
that situation awareness is not important, but when on final what you need
to know is whether to scooch left or right, or to scooch down or up. (or
equivalently, if you are right or left of course, and high or low of the
glideslope).


Bull****. You need to know where you are. So you would just blindly follow
needles? Lord help us. What happens when you intercept a localizer and it
is the wrong one? (Perhaps there are two localizers on either end of the
runway and the "wrong one" is turned on? It has happened. Do you just
follow the needles? (So , it is a little contrived, as I would hope you id
the localizer and find it before then)

You can keep following your needles and ignoring where you are, but I like
to know what the hell is going on when I fly. I will do it my way and I
will never, ever "F\forget" about "reverse sensing." Apparently some folks
like to stick with their voodoo.


With your approach, you know where you are, but you don't know what to do,
until you figure out where you're pointed, and how that lies with respect
to where you should be pointed. It's not "difficult", but it does take
more cycles, and those cycles might be needed elsewhere. Not usually, but
every now and then, and that's when you get bit.

I would not call it cycles. A quick glance at the Heading indicator and at
the chart is all that is needed. My lord, you make it sound like I am
trying to prove a prime number theory or something on final.


What would be nice (and you can fudge this yourself) is a note on the CDI
that says "BACKWARDS", just as a reminder when your cycles get used up.

You go ahead and use that method. I will stick to something that works 100%
with no "cycles" or reminder about "reverse" sensing.
You are also not always on final when intercepting a localizer. I just
prefer not to have to have some exception to the "rule" about the needle
pointing the right way or not. Understand what the instrument tells you and
you need not do mental math, take cycles or put silly postits on your
instrument panel.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

So you would just blindly follow
needles? Lord help us. What happens when
you intercept a localizer and it
is the wrong one?

In that case, I'd also be following the wrong blue/yellow areas.

If you read what I said a bit more closely, you'd see that I was not advocating blindly following needles. But once you are established on the right
course, following the needles is the easiest way to get where you're going.

I would not call it cycles. A quick glance at the Heading indicator and at
the chart is all that is needed.

That's two glances. I need one. Half the work, freeing twice as much brain for other stuff as you're being bounced around. The chart just fell off
the clip, MDA is 436, you're at 740 and one dot in the yellow, now which was the blue area again?. (the red jack goes on the black queen)

You are also not always on final when intercepting a localizer.

Of course not. You are never on final when intercepting a localizer.

I know (as well as most other pilots) that the "reverse sensing" is an illusion caused by "reverse pointing" of the nose of the airplane WRT the OBS
(which on a localizer cannot be changed). But if it could, doing so would be the same as flipping the "reverse sense" switch you deride. You accept
the OBS for VOR, don't you?

Whatever works for you works for you. This works for me.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

wrote in :

I don't think my brain could handle that one. I did a lot of
instrument instructing many years ago, before HSIs appeared in light
aircraft. I thought then, and think now, of flying away from the CDI
needle when flying inbound on a back course.

I teach LOC BC just a little differently; I have had numerous trainees
remark on how simple it is. Just a little change in the way you think.

When flying the localizer back course (without an HSI), think: "I AM THE
NEEDLE. I need to fly toward the center of the CDI." This removes the
"reverse sensing" thought process and makes the whole thing just a little
more intuitive.

L. R. Du Broff
CFII (gold seal)

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 20:54:59 -0500, "Richard Kaplan"
wrote:



wrote in message
.. .


You (1) look at the OBS, (2) select a heading on the needle side
that provides the intercept angle you desire, and (3) fly that
heading. You willl intercept the course on that angle.

You are referring to the situation where a VOR is used to find one's
position, i.e. establishing an initial course to a VOR.


Wrong. I am referring to intercept and tracking, en route, approach,
or holding courses, inbound or outbound.


I am referring instead to the more common situation where a pilot is flying
an instrument approach and needs to stay on course. In that situation,
there is a 2-step process, i.e. look at the needle and adjust track in that
direction (normal sensing) or opposite that direction (reverse sensing).

Let's refer to the common case where a pilot has crossed the approach
course on an intercept without noticing it. He finally notices the
error and needs to turn.

What does he do under your method?


Only because of the law of primacy. It is not MUCH easier, in fact it
is more complex because of the mental processing required, and it is
certainly not safer. I have seen too many pilots reverse course and
fly away from their desired approach course because they kept turning
right or left when the needle didn't start to center.

Again, let's discuss instrument approaches. If a pilot does a 180 on an
instrument approach then there are much more important issues at play than
CDI interpretation paradigms.

How would you know this? You have obviously never used the method, so
you have no basis to make this statement.

Why is this "obvious"?

Because of the statements you have made and the questions you have
asked.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan