Europe as joke

On or about 25 Oct 2003 17:43:14 GMT, (BUFDRVR)
allegedly uttered:

Peter,
From a US perspective, we would much rather have an increased burden
in an alliance that can actually function. Right now, with France, Belgium and
Germany NATO is impotent and unless the policy of unanimity is dropped in favor
of some kind of majority vote, it'll remain so. The US understands very clearly
that several NATO nations would rather be in a pan-European alliance than NATO,
what are we to do if they choose this avenue? The general view of the situation
among US military (including leadership) is, if Germany wants to quit NATO,
great, we'll go elsewhere.

Well, put, but the US is among the nations (as is the UK) opposing the
majority vote, for the same reasons we'll never voluntarily give up
our UNSC veto - we want to be able to stop things *we* don't like.
Short of the other NATO nations saying that we alone can keep our veto
it's not going to improve, and I don't see that happening.

For what it's worth I fully support the move towards deploying forces
further east. There is zero point in having several bases in Germany
in this day and age, and keeping large forces abroad is horribly
expensive. I would suggest providing 1st line bases around the
periphery of the NATO area, fully up to scratch with at least some
munitions in place, but with a minimal manning outside the host
nation. then when necessary forces can easily surge forwards. Of
course there would need to be very regular exercises to keep the
integration of the forces together (IMO the best part of NATO these
days is the relative ease that multinational forces can be put
together - we've been training an equipping together for 50 years).

Then more US and UK troops can be based at home, far cheaper and
giving a better personal life for the forces.

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - Drink Faster

On 25 Oct 2003 17:43:14 GMT, BUFDRVR wrote:
Er, BUFDRVR, you have seen the ToEs of the new nations haven't you
(silly question, I'd damn well hope you were better briefed than me)?

Some of them are stretched to provide more than a battalion for ops,
very little professional military due to the soviet style national
service, and their air forces tend to be in meltdown. If you start to
push out the more traditional members of NATO, then the US will have
to shoulder even more of the burden than currently, and it's the air
components that will really be hurting.

Not Smart


Peter,
From a US perspective, we would much rather have an increased burden
in an alliance that can actually function. Right now, with France, Belgium and
Germany NATO is impotent

By "impotent" I presume you mean "not a puppet of the USA".

and unless the policy of unanimity is dropped in favor
of some kind of majority vote, it'll remain so. The US understands very clearly
that several NATO nations would rather be in a pan-European alliance than NATO,

That's not true. Several NATO nations would like to be in a
pan-European alliance *as well as* NATO.

what are we to do if they choose this avenue? The general view of the situation
among US military (including leadership) is, if Germany wants to quit NATO,

However, no informed commentator believes Germany will leave NATO.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).

"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Money to save USA from Troubles in Iraq? No Thanks we have more serious
way
to spend our money... For example to build a common European defence to
definitively kill NATO.

By buying F-16s, Apaches and C-130s?????
Great move......

--
_________________________________________
Pierre-Henri BARAS

Co-webmaster de French Fleet Air Arm
http://www.ffaa.net
Encyclopédie de l'Aviation sur le web
http://www.aviation-fr.info

Pierre-Henri Baras wrote:
"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Money to save USA from Troubles in Iraq? No Thanks we have more
serious way to spend our money... For example to build a common
European defence to definitively kill NATO.

By buying F-16s, Apaches and C-130s?????
Great move......

Talk with the polish... Italy is partecipating to the Typhoon and a-400
programs

"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Pierre-Henri Baras wrote:
"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Money to save USA from Troubles in Iraq? No Thanks we have more
serious way to spend our money... For example to build a common
European defence to definitively kill NATO.

By buying F-16s, Apaches and C-130s?????
Great move......

Talk with the polish... Italy is partecipating to the Typhoon and a-400
programs

....but just started to receive interim F-16s and bought C-130Js a few years
back.
PHB

Pierre-Henri Baras wrote:
"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Pierre-Henri Baras wrote:
"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Money to save USA from Troubles in Iraq? No Thanks we have more
serious way to spend our money... For example to build a common
European defence to definitively kill NATO.

By buying F-16s, Apaches and C-130s?????
Great move......

Talk with the polish... Italy is partecipating to the Typhoon and
a-400 programs

...but just started to receive interim F-16s and bought C-130Js a few
years back.
PHB

Think about we have yet F-104 for air defence (the only country in the world
i suppose) F-16 is only a leasing and we bought c-130j because our c-130h
were to old to stay in service for the next ten years...

"Pierre-Henri Baras" wrote:


"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Pierre-Henri Baras wrote:
"AIA" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Money to save USA from Troubles in Iraq? No Thanks we have more
serious way to spend our money... For example to build a common
European defence to definitively kill NATO.

By buying F-16s, Apaches and C-130s?????
Great move......

Talk with the polish... Italy is partecipating to the Typhoon and a-400
programs

...but just started to receive interim F-16s and bought C-130Js a few years
back.
PHB

Europe should cancel the F-35 and go with Eurofighter/Rafale /Gripen
hi/lo mix. **** the insolent yankee pigs.

Grantland

AIA wrote:

Money to save USA from Troubles in Iraq? No Thanks we have more serious way
to spend our money... For example to build a common European defence to
definitively kill NATO.

Excellent choice!

I wish you well in the endeavor!


SMH

After an exhausting session with Victoria's Secret Police, Cub Driver
blurted out:

For the rebuilding of Iraq, the United States has pledged $20 billion,
Japan has pledged $1.5 billion, and the European Union has pledged
$235 million.

GWB stated that he didn't need "current" UN backing to invade Iraq
(saying the authority was already in place). Fine. Ride 'em cowboy!

Ignoring the *majority* of the EU nations' opinions was a risk he was
willing to accept. Okay we made the mess, we get to clean it up. The
Iraqi's will be greatful to the US...cool.

To suggest that the EU should be greatful for GWB's foreign policy WRT
to Iraq is mis-guided. To suggest they should defray the costs of
cleaning up the mess we made is wishful thinking. GWB "crapped in
their mess kit," the EU owes nothing to GWB (and by extension the
USA's current foreign policy).

I suspect that you would be equally irate if the EU pledged a greater
amount than the US. The logic being, "Well we kicked Hussein's regime
out, and now those euros are trying to horn in on our re-building
effort and take credit for our efforts."

This is a NO WIN situation for the EU.

How can anyone take Europe seriously as a force in the world?

Well it's pretty easy, the EU has a huge economy...lots of economic
strength. I just finished the last of a six-pack of North Umbrian
Brown Ale...great stuff!

Military force? Probably enough to defend their territory.

Military Force projection? Not a great deal of that, but our friends
in europe don't really see a need for that. That is perfectly
reasonable. While we (the US and the EU) might agree on the need to
fight terrorism, clearly they found no compelling argument in
overthrowing Mr Hussein's despotic regime. Again perfectly reasonable.

Reasonable folks will disagree, as will partners for time to time. GWB
and you Dan should not expect our friends to fall over themselves to
pay our freight when we **** them off.

Someone please remind me how much the U.S. has spent in the former
Yugoslavia. How many billions have we ****ed away, putting out fires
in Europe's outhouse? Why are we continuing to put men and treasure
into the Balkans?

Different situation entirely...a cooperative effort. But you know
that.

Juvat

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:25:43 GMT, Juvat wrote:

Ignoring the *majority* of the EU nations' opinions was a risk he was
willing to accept. Okay we made the mess, we get to clean it up. The
Iraqi's will be greatful to the US...cool.

I suspect that if you think a democratic Iraq would wholeheartedly
support US policies, you are wrong (particularly regarding the
Israeli/Palestinian dispute). Iraq would probably be slightly less
supportive of US policies than France is. (Not that france is
hostile to the USA; it isn't. It just refuses to be subservient to
the USA)

To suggest that the EU should be greatful for GWB's foreign policy WRT
to Iraq is mis-guided. To suggest they should defray the costs of
cleaning up the mess we made is wishful thinking. GWB "crapped in
their mess kit," the EU owes nothing to GWB (and by extension the
USA's current foreign policy).

GWB spend years ****ing off Europe and the rest of the world. Now
when he vwants support, it's bound to be lukewarm. Which is a pity,
since a rebuilt, democratic Iraq would be a good thing, for Iraq,
for the middle east, and for the rest of the world.

I suspect that you would be equally irate if the EU pledged a greater
amount than the US. The logic being, "Well we kicked Hussein's regime
out, and now those euros are trying to horn in on our re-building
effort and take credit for our efforts."

I'm sure some people would think like that.

How can anyone take Europe seriously as a force in the world?

Well it's pretty easy, the EU has a huge economy...lots of economic
strength. I just finished the last of a six-pack of North Umbrian
Brown Ale...great stuff!

I suspect you mean Northumbrian :-) Or possibly "Newcastle Broon"


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: , but first subtract 275 and reverse
the last two letters).