Spins

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:40:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?
Spins are not allowed in the planes available for rent at the airport
from which I fly, probably because they are in two cases more than
sixty years old.



J-3s are actually kinda difficult to get to spin anyway. They'll do it, but
with two up they need a bit of coaxing. not great for incipient spin
training.
Best airplane for it ever was one of my old luscombes. I took the washout
out of the wing to make it go faster, which works, BTW. and as a result,
the airplane was , um, interesting to stall. It was absolutely impossible
to stall without a big wing drop. Doing a falling leaf was like clog
dancing. if you let it go at al it was on it's back in no time. It was also
a very early one with the more difficult ground handling whic, in addition
to the "Fun with Stalls" habit earned it the name "the humiliater"
It was considered an excellent primer for homebuilts. Great airplnae and
it's still flying, though i think with a bit of washout now.


Bertie
The Silvaire was a joy to spin. Snappy little bird!

The best spin entry for the J3 is to start a 1g stall carrying just a
tad of power. then just before the stall break, acellerate it up and in
with back stick and a shot of power for the rudder. Then imm ediately
off the power, hard pro spin rudder and full back stick.
Fun for all involved :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:40:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?
Spins are not allowed in the planes available for rent at the
airport from which I fly, probably because they are in two cases
more than sixty years old.



J-3s are actually kinda difficult to get to spin anyway. They'll do
it, but with two up they need a bit of coaxing. not great for
incipient spin training.
Best airplane for it ever was one of my old luscombes. I took the
washout out of the wing to make it go faster, which works, BTW. and
as a result, the airplane was , um, interesting to stall. It was
absolutely impossible to stall without a big wing drop. Doing a
falling leaf was like clog dancing. if you let it go at al it was on
it's back in no time. It was also a very early one with the more
difficult ground handling whic, in addition to the "Fun with Stalls"
habit earned it the name "the humiliater" It was considered an
excellent primer for homebuilts. Great airplnae and it's still
flying, though i think with a bit of washout now.


Bertie
The Silvaire was a joy to spin. Snappy little bird!

The best spin entry for the J3 is to start a 1g stall carrying just a
tad of power. then just before the stall break, acellerate it up and
in with back stick and a shot of power for the rudder. Then imm
ediately off the power, hard pro spin rudder and full back stick.
Fun for all involved :-))


Yeah, pretty much exactly as I did it. Not so good for teaching
incipient spins when it looks so difficult to get into one!
I can't remember how easy they were to provoke with say, a stepp turn,
but I can't imagine they'd be all that much more likely to depart form
one of those either. It was a lot better solo form the rear seat,
though.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:40:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?
Spins are not allowed in the planes available for rent at the
airport from which I fly, probably because they are in two cases
more than sixty years old.


J-3s are actually kinda difficult to get to spin anyway. They'll do
it, but with two up they need a bit of coaxing. not great for
incipient spin training.
Best airplane for it ever was one of my old luscombes. I took the
washout out of the wing to make it go faster, which works, BTW. and
as a result, the airplane was , um, interesting to stall. It was
absolutely impossible to stall without a big wing drop. Doing a
falling leaf was like clog dancing. if you let it go at al it was on
it's back in no time. It was also a very early one with the more
difficult ground handling whic, in addition to the "Fun with Stalls"
habit earned it the name "the humiliater" It was considered an
excellent primer for homebuilts. Great airplnae and it's still
flying, though i think with a bit of washout now.


Bertie
The Silvaire was a joy to spin. Snappy little bird!

The best spin entry for the J3 is to start a 1g stall carrying just a
tad of power. then just before the stall break, acellerate it up and
in with back stick and a shot of power for the rudder. Then imm
ediately off the power, hard pro spin rudder and full back stick.
Fun for all involved :-))


Yeah, pretty much exactly as I did it. Not so good for teaching
incipient spins when it looks so difficult to get into one!
I can't remember how easy they were to provoke with say, a stepp turn,
but I can't imagine they'd be all that much more likely to depart form
one of those either. It was a lot better solo form the rear seat,
though.


Bertie


Yeah. I always flew the J3 from the back as well. In fact, the one we
had available was back seat solo only. Talk about fun....I flew that
damn thing all the way down the East Coast one spring when I had a month
off to myself. Most of the way I was several hundred yards off shore.
The weather was warm and I had the upper panel open most of the trip.
Every now and then I would throttle back to idle and try shouting at
people down below. I saw them shout back but to tell you the truth I
never heard a word they were saying :-)
Ended up at Key West, stayed several days, island hopped a bit then flew
it home again.
One of the best aviation experiences I ever had really. It's funny when
you stop to think about it. Of all the fancy airplanes that crossed my
path in life, that little J3 and that trip down the coast would be right
up there at the top of the heap for just plain fun with an airplane.


--
Dudley Henriques

On Jan 17, 4:34 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:40:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?
Spins are not allowed in the planes available for rent at the
airport from which I fly, probably because they are in two cases
more than sixty years old.

J-3s are actually kinda difficult to get to spin anyway. They'll do
it, but with two up they need a bit of coaxing. not great for
incipient spin training.
Best airplane for it ever was one of my old luscombes. I took the
washout out of the wing to make it go faster, which works, BTW. and
as a result, the airplane was , um, interesting to stall. It was
absolutely impossible to stall without a big wing drop. Doing a
falling leaf was like clog dancing. if you let it go at al it was on
it's back in no time. It was also a very early one with the more
difficult ground handling whic, in addition to the "Fun with Stalls"
habit earned it the name "the humiliater" It was considered an
excellent primer for homebuilts. Great airplnae and it's still
flying, though i think with a bit of washout now.

Bertie
The Silvaire was a joy to spin. Snappy little bird!

The best spin entry for the J3 is to start a 1g stall carrying just a
tad of power. then just before the stall break, acellerate it up and
in with back stick and a shot of power for the rudder. Then imm
ediately off the power, hard pro spin rudder and full back stick.
Fun for all involved :-))

Yeah, pretty much exactly as I did it. Not so good for teaching
incipient spins when it looks so difficult to get into one!
I can't remember how easy they were to provoke with say, a stepp turn,
but I can't imagine they'd be all that much more likely to depart form
one of those either. It was a lot better solo form the rear seat,
though.

Bertie

Yeah. I always flew the J3 from the back as well. In fact, the one we
had available was back seat solo only. Talk about fun....I flew that
damn thing all the way down the East Coast one spring when I had a month
off to myself. Most of the way I was several hundred yards off shore.
The weather was warm and I had the upper panel open most of the trip.
Every now and then I would throttle back to idle and try shouting at
people down below. I saw them shout back but to tell you the truth I
never heard a word they were saying :-)
Ended up at Key West, stayed several days, island hopped a bit then flew
it home again.
One of the best aviation experiences I ever had really. It's funny when
you stop to think about it. Of all the fancy airplanes that crossed my
path in life, that little J3 and that trip down the coast would be right
up there at the top of the heap for just plain fun with an airplane.

--
Dudley Henriques

Sounds like fun! Makes me wonder if being a banner tower would be so
bad?? Hours of slow flight along the beach?

After reading Rinker buck's "Flight of Passage" all I wanted to do was
replicate that flight.

Flying Pittsburgh to Phoenix in an A36 in 10 hours wasn't the same....

Dan

wrote:
On Jan 17, 4:34 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Cubdriver usenet AT danford DOT net wrote in
:
On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:40:35 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Why is it that a PPL is obtainable without basic spin recovery
demonstration? What about inverted recoveries?
Spins are not allowed in the planes available for rent at the
airport from which I fly, probably because they are in two cases
more than sixty years old.
J-3s are actually kinda difficult to get to spin anyway. They'll do
it, but with two up they need a bit of coaxing. not great for
incipient spin training.
Best airplane for it ever was one of my old luscombes. I took the
washout out of the wing to make it go faster, which works, BTW. and
as a result, the airplane was , um, interesting to stall. It was
absolutely impossible to stall without a big wing drop. Doing a
falling leaf was like clog dancing. if you let it go at al it was on
it's back in no time. It was also a very early one with the more
difficult ground handling whic, in addition to the "Fun with Stalls"
habit earned it the name "the humiliater" It was considered an
excellent primer for homebuilts. Great airplnae and it's still
flying, though i think with a bit of washout now.
Bertie
The Silvaire was a joy to spin. Snappy little bird!
The best spin entry for the J3 is to start a 1g stall carrying just a
tad of power. then just before the stall break, acellerate it up and
in with back stick and a shot of power for the rudder. Then imm
ediately off the power, hard pro spin rudder and full back stick.
Fun for all involved :-))
Yeah, pretty much exactly as I did it. Not so good for teaching
incipient spins when it looks so difficult to get into one!
I can't remember how easy they were to provoke with say, a stepp turn,
but I can't imagine they'd be all that much more likely to depart form
one of those either. It was a lot better solo form the rear seat,
though.
Bertie
Yeah. I always flew the J3 from the back as well. In fact, the one we
had available was back seat solo only. Talk about fun....I flew that
damn thing all the way down the East Coast one spring when I had a month
off to myself. Most of the way I was several hundred yards off shore.
The weather was warm and I had the upper panel open most of the trip.
Every now and then I would throttle back to idle and try shouting at
people down below. I saw them shout back but to tell you the truth I
never heard a word they were saying :-)
Ended up at Key West, stayed several days, island hopped a bit then flew
it home again.
One of the best aviation experiences I ever had really. It's funny when
you stop to think about it. Of all the fancy airplanes that crossed my
path in life, that little J3 and that trip down the coast would be right
up there at the top of the heap for just plain fun with an airplane.

--
Dudley Henriques

Sounds like fun! Makes me wonder if being a banner tower would be so
bad?? Hours of slow flight along the beach?

After reading Rinker buck's "Flight of Passage" all I wanted to do was
replicate that flight.

Flying Pittsburgh to Phoenix in an A36 in 10 hours wasn't the same....

Dan
Back in the (old days a lot of new commercial pilots tried the banner
towing game. It seemed the banner outfits were always looking for new
pilots. (Something in that somewhere for smart people I think :-)

I never did any towing, but a lot of those who did informed me that they
learned fairly fast that it wasn't the easiest game in town. Many of the
airplanes being used were VERY old. One outfit down in Atlantic City
were using old Navy N3N's and towing with these crates meant that much
of the time you were riding the ragged edge on the left side of the
envelope.
It was good work for the learning involved and great training for those
who did it.


--
Dudley Henriques

Michael schrieb:

managed to stall a plane inadvertently and completely unexpectedly at
100 kts pointing straight down (coming off the back side of a loop).
I think that did much more to prepare me for the unexpected spin than
any amount of training could have.

Voluntarily executing a spin (1, 2, 3, there we go, yahoo!) is one
thing. But suddenly seeing nothing in front of oneself except some
blurry rotating green is a completely different story. I've learnt this
during my second aerobatics camp.

All the basic stuff was mastered, including spins in all kind of
configurations. So spins were pretty SOP, one should think. Then came my
first flight in a Fox (I'm talking gliders here). A half flick to
inverted, followed by a half loop downwards. Obviously there was still
some slip present, because suddenly, at 45 degrees pitch, just where the
G load starts to build, that pretty landscape in front of me disappeared
and all I saw was a blurry, undefined and rotating green disc.

Surprize, I can tell you! One second or even two went by before I
understood what was going on. Maybe another second to recognize to wich
side the disc was rotating. And maybe a third second to sort out which
foot to use.

The actual recovery then was a non event, and I succeeded even to hit
the axis. But since that experience I strongly believe that the usual
spin demonstration (1,2,3, yank that stick back and stomp onto the
pedal) is pretty much useless to prepare a pilot for that accidental spin.

Cubdriver schrieb:

some spins in the PA-18. The answer was no, because it might tumble
the gyros. So there's another reason folks don't teach spins.

I'll never understand why non-cageable gyros even exist.

On Jan 17, 5:22 pm, Bob Moore wrote:
wrote

The 172 N Model I fly from time to time is only approved (and thus was
only tested) for spins when CG falls within the utility category.
Though it may be recovered from a spin when loaded within the normal
category range, it was not certificated that way. Which tells me there
is no assurance of recovery.

BULL****!!

Section 23.221: Spinning.
(a) Normal category airplanes. A single-engine, normal category airplane
must be able to recover from a one-turn spin or a three-second spin,
whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn after
initiation of the first control action for recovery, or demonstrate
compliance with the optional spin resistant requirements of this
section.

(1) The following apply to one turn or three second spins:

(i) For both the flaps-retracted and flaps-extended conditions, the
applicable airspeed limit and positive limit maneuvering load factor
must not be exceeded;

(ii) No control forces or characteristic encountered during the spin or
recovery may adversely affect prompt recovery;

(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use
of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or
during the spin;

I would suggest that you read the entire FAR section 23.221 for Normal,
Utility, and Aerobatic category aircraft.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

I've read the FARs.

I've also read the POH, which states "Spins approved when loaded
within utility category."

I'll see your Bullchip and raise you three chickships.

Dan

Dan

Bob Moore schrieb:

(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use
of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or
during the spin;

I once had the chance to talk to the chief test pilot of a muanufactorer
(no names here) and asked exactly this. His answer was clear: Sure their
airplanes recover from spins. But they don't trust the pilots, and they
don't even trust the average instructor. So they decided to prohibit
spins to avoid liability issues.

wrote:
On Jan 17, 5:22 pm, Bob Moore wrote:
wrote

The 172 N Model I fly from time to time is only approved (and thus was
only tested) for spins when CG falls within the utility category.
Though it may be recovered from a spin when loaded within the normal
category range, it was not certificated that way. Which tells me there
is no assurance of recovery.
BULL****!!

Section 23.221: Spinning.
(a) Normal category airplanes. A single-engine, normal category airplane
must be able to recover from a one-turn spin or a three-second spin,
whichever takes longer, in not more than one additional turn after
initiation of the first control action for recovery, or demonstrate
compliance with the optional spin resistant requirements of this
section.

(1) The following apply to one turn or three second spins:

(i) For both the flaps-retracted and flaps-extended conditions, the
applicable airspeed limit and positive limit maneuvering load factor
must not be exceeded;

(ii) No control forces or characteristic encountered during the spin or
recovery may adversely affect prompt recovery;

(iii) It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use
of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or
during the spin;

I would suggest that you read the entire FAR section 23.221 for Normal,
Utility, and Aerobatic category aircraft.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

I've read the FARs.

I've also read the POH, which states "Spins approved when loaded
within utility category."

I'll see your Bullchip and raise you three chickships.

Dan

Dan



But you said your 172N hadn't been tested when in the utility
configuration. 23.221 pretty much shows that is not the case. There is a
difference in approved and tested.