Stalls and Thoughts

On Mar 15, 9:43 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Wouldn't a more exact definition be that the "region of reversed
command" is that condition where induced drag is at its greatest,
pitch only controls airspeed, and power only controls altitude?

One can "drag in" and airplane and not meet all the aforementioned
conditions.

The usefulness of this condition is apparent in short field landings.

Wel, I don't do it and I bet you ten bucks I can pull off the runway
shorter than you.

Bertie

I didn't say it was the only technique, but it works well.

And what are you flying? Because I'll take that bet.


Dan

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I
just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't
be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it
being used associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of
aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real
documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I heard it
was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've heard it since
used by several sources when discussing landing accidents involving low
and slow approach profiles.
I'm sure it probably was hijacked as you have said. If you will notice,
I used it only to describe the condition of a behind the curve
airspeed, high sink rate, not enough altitude to recover without
reducing angle of attack approach profile. I could have used another
term. I choose coffin corner. It was you who chimed in with the
'official definition" which I know quite well.
I never meant to imply anything else.

--
Dudley Henriques

Well, I usually try to keep things simple. So when I teach this I draw the
standard power curve chart and show the part to the left where you can see
that an increase in pitch results in a loss of lift. Hence the construction
of the phrase "Reverse" and "Command". There might be a more precise
definition but I think that illustrates the concept and gets the points
across. The phrase "dragging it in" has the word "drag" and phrase "it
in". The "drag" part we all see. The "it in" part implies "for a landing".
So I see "dragging it in" and "back of the power curve" going together real
nicely.
--
BobF.
"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Mar 15, 7:10 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bob F. wrote:
"Dragging it in" does not necessarily mean "in in the area of reverse
command". It just means that you have added power instead of reducing
drag by retracting flaps or gear, etc. "The area of reverse command"
is an exteme example.

The coffin corner of the back side of the power curve is the extreme.
You can add power flaps or no flaps and still be well on the front side
of the power curve.
Generally speaking, if you are "dragging it in, you are most certainly
in the area of reverse command

--
Dudley Henriques

Wouldn't a more exact definition be that the "region of reversed
command" is that condition where induced drag is at its greatest,
pitch only controls airspeed, and power only controls altitude?

One can "drag in" and airplane and not meet all the aforementioned
conditions.

The usefulness of this condition is apparent in short field landings.

Dan Mc

Dan wrote in news:ee18e9bc-1a2d-41b5-a269-421fc3ee9928
@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

On Mar 15, 9:43 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Wouldn't a more exact definition be that the "region of reversed
command" is that condition where induced drag is at its greatest,
pitch only controls airspeed, and power only controls altitude?

One can "drag in" and airplane and not meet all the aforementioned
conditions.

The usefulness of this condition is apparent in short field landings.

Wel, I don't do it and I bet you ten bucks I can pull off the runway
shorter than you.

Bertie

I didn't say it was the only technique, but it works well.

Nope, it;'s dangerous and unnecessary and sloppy technique.

And what are you flying? Because I'll take that bet.

Anything you like sunshine.


Bertie

Dan wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:43 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Wouldn't a more exact definition be that the "region of reversed
command" is that condition where induced drag is at its greatest,
pitch only controls airspeed, and power only controls altitude?
One can "drag in" and airplane and not meet all the aforementioned
conditions.
The usefulness of this condition is apparent in short field landings.
Wel, I don't do it and I bet you ten bucks I can pull off the runway
shorter than you.

Bertie

I didn't say it was the only technique, but it works well.

And what are you flying? Because I'll take that bet.


Dan


What I think he's saying Dan is that you can drag it in and plop it down
if you do it right and don't screw it up, but it's not the best
procedure and can get you into trouble real fast.
It's not necessary to fly a behind the curve approach into a short
field. In fact, the accepted procedure for short field is nowhere near
back side.

--
Dudley Henriques

I remember that, there was a reason for it. It'll come to me and I'll have
to get back. It had something to do with persistent or repetitive negative
G, or always maintaining positive G for cabin integrity over time...or
something like that. It's funny because you train people to do things and
sometime don't teach them the reasons why.

--
BobF.
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
"Bob F." wrote in
:

Right, right...it is actually controlled by tabs, my slip. Boy, not
many know that either, I'll bet. Anyway, if you pull too hard, they
stall, that is won't move, So you have to relax the back pressure
almost completely and then pull not so hard the next time. Weird
feeling when you are descending, trying to check altitude quickly, and
don't know what's happening.

i retrained a lot of 707 guys on the 727 and the 'Bus and they had the
weirdest way of flying! They'd start to interecept an altitude with
thousands of feet to go sometime. They also used to just about have a
heart
attack if you used the speedbrake.

Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in news:7JGdnS1ILaP_
:

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I
just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't
be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it
being used associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of
aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real
documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I heard it
was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've heard it since
used by several sources when discussing landing accidents involving low
and slow approach profiles.

Well, like "dragging it in" it's not exactly a tech term. But it's origins
are in the shape of the envelope and relate to mach buffet problems
associated with high alt flight. It's poorly understood, even by most
airline pilots, and frequently misused, usually as a modrn equivelent of
"there be dragons there" for all sorts of things that happen around the
edges of all sorts of flight envelopes. I've heard a chopper guy use it to
describe the lead lag roll they get when they go too fast, for instance.


Bertie

"Bob F." wrote in
:

I remember that, there was a reason for it. It'll come to me and I'll
have to get back. It had something to do with persistent or
repetitive negative G, or always maintaining positive G for cabin
integrity over time...or something like that. It's funny because you
train people to do things and sometime don't teach them the reasons
why.


No more so than these days. My 757 course was a joke, really. I think it
took about ten minutes to do the engine module and maybe twenty to do the
fuel system, for instance. They don;t want us to play with anything
anymore. On the plus side, the new airplanes fly just like airplanes. Spool
up times are almost as fast as pistons, they're speed stable on approach,
the controls are light. They have real good power/weight. IOW, they're for
kids.




Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Dan wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:43 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Wouldn't a more exact definition be that the "region of reversed
command" is that condition where induced drag is at its greatest,
pitch only controls airspeed, and power only controls altitude?
One can "drag in" and airplane and not meet all the aforementioned
conditions.
The usefulness of this condition is apparent in short field
landings.
Wel, I don't do it and I bet you ten bucks I can pull off the runway
shorter than you.

Bertie

I didn't say it was the only technique, but it works well.

And what are you flying? Because I'll take that bet.


Dan


What I think he's saying Dan is that you can drag it in and plop it
down
if you do it right and don't screw it up, but it's not the best
procedure and can get you into trouble real fast.
It's not necessary to fly a behind the curve approach into a short
field. In fact, the accepted procedure for short field is nowhere near
back side.


Exaclty. The approach speed matters not a jot. It aonly matters that you
arrive at the spot and at the speed. Dragging it in is easy. A short
cut. Aside form the engine failure problem, there's the problem of wind
shear taking you even further back at an inopportune moment. Unless you
have moe power than god, you're screwed. A fairly normal 1.3 VSO
approach speed with excess bled off when it's safe to do so ( i.e., not
too far to fall) is a much better way to do it. It takes a lot more
practice, though...


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:7JGdnS1ILaP_
:

Bob F. wrote:
Where did you come to the conclusion it was correct in both cases? I
just said I am not surprised the term got "high jacked. and it wouldn't
be the first time" Meaning, incorrectly. I've just never heard it
being used associated with the back of the power curve in 50 years of
aviation that's all. Could have missed it. Love to see some real
documentation.

You might or might not not find documentation. The first time I heard it
was in connection with the F100 crash at Edwards. I've heard it since
used by several sources when discussing landing accidents involving low
and slow approach profiles.

Well, like "dragging it in" it's not exactly a tech term. But it's origins
are in the shape of the envelope and relate to mach buffet problems
associated with high alt flight. It's poorly understood, even by most
airline pilots, and frequently misused, usually as a modrn equivelent of
"there be dragons there" for all sorts of things that happen around the
edges of all sorts of flight envelopes. I've heard a chopper guy use it to
describe the lead lag roll they get when they go too fast, for instance.


Bertie
Perhaps I misread the poster's question. he stated as follows;

The Sargon wrote and I answered;
"I am curious as to the meaning of the phrase "..dragging it in". As
in "...he turned on final, dragging it in".

Perhaps I'm nuts, but I took this wording to be referring to an
approach, not the high altitude scenario :-))

--
Dudley Henriques