IDAHO FATALITY

I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. Anyone got any specifics? Tough summer
for gliding!

On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

Originally Posted by Frank Whiteley

On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE State: ID Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID (NM11) Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Walt

On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:
Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.


IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y Make/Model: EXP Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE State: ID Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID (NM11) Entry date: 08/19/2011


Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:
On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:





Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database.. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy

On Aug 21, 7:54*am, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:





On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was there and Ramy is right. Why he had done the pass is the big
mystery.

He may have ben low coming in and didn't want to do a downwind landing
in 10-12k winds.

We may never know, but it is a tragedy, and my or may not have been
preventable.

Let's fly safe out there.

BTW, I completely agree with using the RADIO to convey information vs.
the old-fashioned and ambigous waggle signals, and won't fly at an
airport that doesn't have radios in the tow planes.

Wayne

On Aug 21, 10:54*am, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:





On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not sure what happened in this incident....but I have heard of
MANY stall spins from high speed low pass followed by sharp pull
up......I also saw a video of wing flutter during a too fast fast
pass, (and wing depart.)...I have also heard of coutless airplane
accidents attributed to "buzzing"....

The lesson is simple.......Learn from the mistakes of others...you can
greatly increase your odds of not killing yourself if you don't do any
of the above!!

Cookie

On Aug 21, 8:54*am, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:









On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy

Without attribution to anyone, I've gathered the following.

The PIC was familiar with the site, having flown rides there last year
with a 2-32 (the one in the earlier MT fatal crash).

He owned the BG-12b since 2007. However, this was apparently his
first outing with the glider and his fifth flight in it. He'd flown
it earlier in the week. Stall tests showed a tendency for right wing
to break first.

The downwind was apparently described as slow (and low) despite an
estimated 10-15mph tail wind. If that's ground wind, it's likely to
be somewhat higher at 100ft, 200ft, and 300ft above the ground.
Turning 180 for a landing in a wind gradient reverses the wind speed
differential between the lower and higher wings and maybe allowed the
lowered wing to stall.

Some may recall the Derek Piggott story of doing a 180 to a down wind
landing being the only thing that allowed enough aileron authority in
the wind gradient to be able to level the wings for landing.

Frank Whiteley

On Aug 20, 10:03*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:

I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/B_0819_N.txt

While looking for it, I saw this one

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

The rudder waggle does not mean "release now." How terribly sad

John Cochrane

On 8/20/11 2:00 PM, John Cochrane wrote:
On Aug 20, 10:03 am, Frank wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41 am, wrote:

I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. Anyone got any specifics? Tough summer
for gliding!

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/acc...a/B_0819_N.txt

While looking for it, I saw this one

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...15X11650&key=1

The rudder waggle does not mean "release now." How terribly sad

John Cochrane

Ah I assume then you missed the unending thread from hell here about the
rudder waggle signal that was triggered by that accident.

Darryl