Help Our UAL Friends

"Jon A" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:38:02 GMT, John Theune
wrote:

Jon A wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:33:24 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Jon A" wrote in message
m...

Unions are there to protect the working class from
unfair management practices, which unfortunately shows their true
colors.


What unfair management practices?


Ones that would be allowed to proliferate if no unions were present.
How about 14 hour work days with no breaks for starters? I really
don't believe that someone who is as learned as you appear to be would
ask that question. Check a history book if you want to know more.

Which has been turned into law, so the need for unions to enforce this
has pretty much gone away. What has not gone away is the ability for
unions to backmail companies into agreeing to contracts that cripple
their ability to compete. Unions played a important role in the
creation of fair labor laws to protect workers but the need for them in
that role has passed and now they are hurting the workers more then
helping them as a company that goes out of business employs no one.

Sounds like a pure republican talking.

I think he sounds like reality, and that's no political party. Take te AA
F/A tantrum a while back, when the company was about to file for bankruptcy.
There's only one reason why they did what they did -- because they could, to
stomp on the ground and scream "You brute! You brute! You brute!
Wwwwaaaaaaaa!" What was hilarious to me was their complaining about a
standard practice in companies in trouble who need to keep their key
personnel -- retention bonuses. There's a zillion F/A's out there, and many
more wannabe's on the streets. Finding a top exec or key manager that can
take over a key position when the company is in trouble is damn near
impossible. But of course, expecting a union to recognize this is just as
impossible, especially when hormones, or a lack thereof, get in the way.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Look further and you will find a once great airline that was more or
less
taken over by hotel people and run into the ground.
Also notice that huge (then) golden parachute that one CEO got
when they let him go.
Also notice how they raided the IAM employees overfunded
pension fund for cash to buy another hotel chain.
...and on and on and on.

Proctor and Gamble runs airlines and hotel chains?


For Christ sake, the subject is (was) UAL!
Pay attention. But thanks anyway for the good lead in
to something that has had me ****ed for over 20 years.

Pay attention yourself; the issue under discussion is HOW the situation
came about.

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny? The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

UAL sold off The Hertz Corporation, Westin Hotels, and Hilton
International Hotels in 1988. It is a bit of a stretch to believe that
raiding the United cash cow 17 years ago is the singular cause of the
current fate of United.

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
news:WKBYe.68943

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive
human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny? The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

Unions are there to protect the working class

From what? Themselfs.


Like teachers?


--
Matt

---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Look further and you will find a once great airline that was more or
less
taken over by hotel people and run into the ground.
Also notice that huge (then) golden parachute that one CEO got
when they let him go.
Also notice how they raided the IAM employees overfunded
pension fund for cash to buy another hotel chain.
...and on and on and on.

Proctor and Gamble runs airlines and hotel chains?


For Christ sake, the subject is (was) UAL!
Pay attention. But thanks anyway for the good lead in
to something that has had me ****ed for over 20 years.

Pay attention yourself; the issue under discussion is HOW the situation
came about.

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

I imagine a person with this talent could demand quite a good salary. This
person would not need a union he could make more money on his own.

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny? The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


Look further and you will find a once great airline that was more or
less
taken over by hotel people and run into the ground.
Also notice that huge (then) golden parachute that one CEO got
when they let him go.
Also notice how they raided the IAM employees overfunded
pension fund for cash to buy another hotel chain.
...and on and on and on.

Proctor and Gamble runs airlines and hotel chains?


For Christ sake, the subject is (was) UAL!
Pay attention. But thanks anyway for the good lead in
to something that has had me ****ed for over 20 years.

Pay attention yourself; the issue under discussion is HOW the situation
came about.

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

And if left to merely draw interest, rather than invested, they'd wail ...
Oh, forget it!


If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny?

No, just pointing out that you're talking out your ass.


The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Well, maybe because George and I were having a parallel discussion that you
jumped into and tried to hijack.


Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

No...(once again) when did the union take over ownership of UAL?

Why I have a burr under my saddle is that you're trying to use only data
that supports your position and thus engaging in numerous logical fallacies.

I can sympathize with your plight of 27 years, but you're evidently far too
busy making excuses for your peers and yourself sitting on their brains and
wanting it "both ways". This is a primary reason so many people have lost an
affinity for unions that shoot themselves in the ass.

Grow up!

"sfb" wrote in message news:P%BYe.4227$yN1.407@trnddc03...
UAL sold off The Hertz Corporation, Westin Hotels, and Hilton
International Hotels in 1988. It is a bit of a stretch to believe that
raiding the United cash cow 17 years ago is the singular cause of the
current fate of United.

A "stretch" is all they have for making childish excuses.



"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
news:WKBYe.68943

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

If you can't handle abstractions (that decidedly and distinctive human
characteristic) then start a sub-thread.

PKB You've gone and appointed yourself net-nanny? The thread
that Orval started was practically addressed to me, a 27 yr UAL vet.
I've been glued to it since and only your appropriate post about
home-grown management prompted me to post a comparison to
the airline, almost as old as soap (P&G).
I have no idea why you got that burr under your saddle.

Also, how long has it been since the union owned UAL?

I suppose you mean back when they started giving us ESOP
stock instead of COL payraises. Want to buy mine?
'taint worth much.

"sfb" wrote in message news:P%BYe.4227$yN1.407@trnddc03...
UAL sold off The Hertz Corporation, Westin Hotels, and Hilton
International Hotels in 1988. It is a bit of a stretch to believe that
raiding the United cash cow 17 years ago is the singular cause of the
current fate of United.

Aah, yes, it was Hilton instead of Sheraton and somehow, I had
completly forgotton about Hertz. (senior moment? )
Can you imagine why the once proud airline that started in
aircraft like the Ford Trimoter felt it was only along for the ride?

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
news:WKBYe.68943

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

(snip)

"Aluckyguess" wrote in message
...

"Jim Knoyle" wrote in message
...

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...


(snip)

From where I stood, right there on the front line, 'HOW' began
when the hotel people saw a cash cow and took over UAL. When
one of the upper hotel types referred to us mechanics as "overpaid
bellhops," it sure didn't help. My neighbor, a service writer for a
car dealership, had a lot more take home pay than I. I suppose
the satisfaction from being able to maintain and certify a DC-10
for a pea soup fog landing at SFO was supposed to cover the
difference. ( In a way, it did. I sure loved that job. )

I imagine a person with this talent could demand quite a good salary. This
person would not need a union he could make more money on his own.

For a reality check on day two you would probably get to
crawl through the inner reaches of some fuel tank to
replace all of the fuel quantity probes.
There was no equiv. non union job available and the cost of
maintaining calibrated test equipment and a supply of approved
servicable spare parts made being a self contractor unrealistic.
There was no choice but hire on with a major airline.
Also, guess whose labor was contracted out to fix the aircraft
of the fly-by-nighter that was cutting your throat in the marketplace. :-)

Do you suppose that the overfunded IAM pension fund, if left
to draw intrest, would be in much better shape today instead of
being ripped off to buy the Sheraton Hotels and put into the
shape it is? The ESOP buyout was intended to save an airline
that was on a downward spiral. Too bad it didn't work.
I guess when the U logo morphed into a WI it was too late.

Oops, Hilton, not Sheraton, sorry.

(snip)

Matt Barrow ) wrote:
:
: Unions are there to protect the working class
:
: Like teachers?
:
:

American teachers may become the next occupational "endangered species":


http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/050826_vfl.htm
VDARE.com: 08/26/05 - View From Lodi, CA:
Look Out Teachers; The H-1B Visa Gang Wants Your Job

"View From Lodi, CA: Look Out Teachers; The H-1B Visa Gang Wants Your Job
By Joe Guzzardi

A recent item in the Las Vegas Review-Journal should raise eyebrows
among my teaching colleagues and parents with school age children.

In his warm and fuzzy story titled Teachers Arrive From Philippines,
Antonio Planas reported that 51 Filipino teachers recruited in
February to work for the Clark County School District have completed
their 7,000-mile journey. They are headed directly to the classroom.
[August 2, 2005]

Clark County is, according to the story, short about 400 teachers
district wide.

But tough, unasked questions remain.

Will the new instructors be able to make the transition from teaching
in rural communities half way around the world--one described her
village as "rice and coconut farmers"--to teaching in the neon lights
of urban Las Vegas?

[snip]

The Filipino teachers are legally in the U.S. on non-immigrant H-1B
visas. And that fact begs a bigger question: did Clark County exhaust
every opportunity to hire an American before traveling to the other
side of the globe?

Rob Sanchez, who tracks non-immigrant visa issues and is the Webmaster
for the invaluable www.zazona.com, says school districts fail to look
at unemployed local professionals. Many laid off software engineers,
for example, have gone back to school to get education degrees.

Wrote Sanchez in his August 3rd newsletter:

"School districts all over the United States are actively recruiting
foreign teachers for our schools. In this case, Filipino math and
science teachers on H-1B visas have just arrived in Nevada.

I have talked to many engineers and programmers that have been unable
to get teaching jobs in math and science, despite the fact that they
went back to school to get education degrees. Despite the growing
number of desperate unemployed high-tech workers states like Nevada
still claim there is a shortage of these types of teachers. This is
just another cruel insult to the growing number of highly educated
professionals that can't find meaningful work."

And when Sanchez says that recruitment of foreign teachers is going on
nationwide, he isn't kidding.

o In 2003, Arizona educators traveled to New Delhi for teachers
even though the local Scottsdale Unified School District cut 175
jobs during the same period. [Teachers Recruited from India, Pat
Kossan, Arizona Republic, March 22, 2003]

o In June 2004, the New York Department of Education, crying
"shortage," added 200 additional teachers from Jamaica to its staff.
The state offered two additional bonuses: free legal advice so that
they could convert their visas into permanent residency status and
free temporary housing.

o In September 2001, Cleveland hired 50 math and special
education teachers from India. This year 500 pink slips are being sent
out in what the Cleveland Plain-Dealer describes as

"The first wave in what will be deep staff cuts in
the school district."

[Nearly 500 Teachers Will Be Cut, Janet Okoben and Ebony Reed,
April 23, 2005]

At the beginning of my column I warned that teachers should be leery
of the trend to hire H-1Bs.

Conservative estimates put the number of teachers with non-immigrant
visas at about 15,000...and growing.

If you wonder why the attraction to H-1Bs is so strong, read the 2004
National Education Association report Trends in Foreign Teacher
Recruitment.

From the NEA report:

"...Some foreign teachers receive lower pay than comparable teachers
in their schools."

And:

"...Some school districts pay their nonimmigrant employees as new
teachers, regardless of their experience and qualifications..."



--Jerry Leslie
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