Descending through a thin icing layer

Exactly.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in
:

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Judah" wrote in message
...

Why declare an Emergency when all you really want to do is request
assistance?



Why not declare an emergency? What better way is there to get maximum
assistance than to declare an emergency?



If you need maximum assistance, I agree. If all you need is a quick
altitude change to get out of icing conditions, why declare an
emergency? Now, if I ask for a change and the answer is "standby",
then I will declare an emergency as I now need more assistance than was
offered.


Matt

"Judah" wrote in message
...

Do you declare an emergency every time you need a Vector?


No, but I certainly don't consider that a need for assistance. Do you?



I don't think it's appropriate to declare an emergency if there isn't
one.


Nor do I.

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

That's why I don't get myself into a situation where I'm running out of
fuel! :-) There's just no excuse for it unless, as I mentioned
earlier, it is due to a leak or something else out of your control and
that didn't get noticed quickly enough.

Hmmm. So, I'm confused. Is there an excuse, or is there no excuse?

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote
I would think a well trained IFR pilot could descend through 2,000 feet of
below freezing visible moisture far more safely than a VFR pilot through
non-freezing visble moisture.

I don't agreee at all.

A VFR pilot still has had 3 hours of instrument training, and ought to
have no problem at all mnaintaining wings level as he descends through
a layer for 5 minutes. Unless he screws up hideously, he ought to be
able to complete the descent safely 100% of the time.

Icing is unpredictable.

I would think in most case, the descent would just pick up a little light
ice and not affect the flight much at all.

Yes, in most cases there will only be a little ice. In some cases, it
will be a lot - and at that point, the plane will fall out of the sky
and no amount of training will help.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message om...


A VFR pilot still has had 3 hours of instrument training, and ought to
have no problem at all mnaintaining wings level as he descends through
a layer for 5 minutes. Unless he screws up hideously, he ought to be
able to complete the descent safely 100% of the time.

Perhaps. If you know you are going to need to fly instruments, you can usually
handle a straight descent ok. (at least for a short time). I suspect the major
killer is the tendency to continue to look out the window into the abyss rather
than hunkering down and getting on the instruments. Then you're safe until
the leans set in.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

If you need maximum assistance, I agree. If all you need is a quick
altitude change to get out of icing conditions, why declare an
emergency?



A simple altitude change is not a request for assistance.



I guess it depends on how you define assistance.


Matt

Dave Butler wrote:
Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

That's why I don't get myself into a situation where I'm running out
of fuel! :-) There's just no excuse for it unless, as I mentioned
earlier, it is due to a leak or something else out of your control and
that didn't get noticed quickly enough.


Hmmm. So, I'm confused. Is there an excuse, or is there no excuse?

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.


In most cases, there is no excuse. However, there are things that can
happen that are beyond the pilots control.


Matt

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 12:22:44 -0500, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"Michael" wrote in message om...


A VFR pilot still has had 3 hours of instrument training, and ought to
have no problem at all mnaintaining wings level as he descends through
a layer for 5 minutes. Unless he screws up hideously, he ought to be
able to complete the descent safely 100% of the time.

Perhaps. If you know you are going to need to fly instruments, you can usually
handle a straight descent ok. (at least for a short time). I suspect the major
killer is the tendency to continue to look out the window into the abyss rather
than hunkering down and getting on the instruments. Then you're safe until
the leans set in.

Those leans are bad enough even when you are current and rated. :-))

Possibly... IF the pilot has recently had some hood time, but I think
you will find a lot of rated instrument pilots can be uncomfortable
with the idea of being "on the gauges" for 5 minutes if they haven't
had any real, or simulated instrument time in a couple of years.

In the above scenario, IF the pilot has the plane trimmed for straight
and level, then reduces the power for a straight and level descent AND
believes the gauges, AND makes no more than the necessary inputs to
keep the wings level he, or she *probably* would make it, but I'd not
want to wager more than pocket change. There are just too many things
to go wrong.

The 3 hours is minimal and without any recurrent training doesn't come
any where near preparing the pilot for real instrument conditions.
Just ask any instrument student with 3 hours of hood time how they are
doing. As it's recent, they should handle straight ahead climbs and
descents, but three hours some years back is not exactly comforting.

I have the rating, I haven't flown much in the last couple of years,
and I'm not IFR current. I am getting ready to go take a competency
check. The point is, prior to starting on the competency check, I'd
have been extremely uncomfortable with the idea of 5 minutes on the
gauges. I'd be confident I could do it, but I'd still be
uncomfortable and I have quite a few hours in actual. I had near 10
and many approaches down to minimums prior to taking the check ride.
I was far more proficient the first time I went into actual on my own
than I was just a few weeks ago, maybe even now.

I'd say a pilot who only has the 3 hours required for the PPL with no
recent hood time is a long way of being assured of completing a 5
minute descent in IMC 100% of the time.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ink.net:


"Judah" wrote in message
...

Do you declare an emergency every time you need a Vector?


No, but I certainly don't consider that a need for assistance. Do you?


No? What is it then?

You need a vector in order to get your nose pointed in the right direction.
Maybe you are lost. Maybe you are disoriented. Maybe all your charts blew
out the window. Maybe your VORs failed.

If you didn't need assistance, you would have pointed the nose where it
belongs all by yourself... If you didn't need assistance, I would assume
you wouldn't have asked for a vector.


I don't think it's appropriate to declare an emergency if there isn't
one.


Nor do I.

"Judah" wrote in message
...

No? What is it then?


It's a heading issued to an aircraft to provide navigational guidance by
radar.