Any traffic please advise

On 25 Aug 2006 19:09:14 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan"
wrote:

If you
simply announce "citation xxx 5 mile final"


Why wouldn't you fly a pattern like everybody else? This is a genuine
question. I've always disliked jets coming into uncontrolled fields
on a really long final. I have no way to know how long it will take
them to actually get to the airport from 5, 8, 10 miles out. If
everyone flew a pattern I'd think sequencing and cooperative flow
would be easier.

I understand larger planes would fly a wider and higher pattern, but
this is what happens at certain airports anyway and I don't see how
this could be an issue.

z

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
oups.com...
I will admit of having used the "traffic in the area please advice".
However, I think I have a reasonable justification. When ATC drops you
off 5 miles from an uncontrolled airport, you are flying a fast
airplane, you don't have a lot of time to figure out the other
airplanes in the traffic pattern. Someone could have announced a
base-to-final turn couple of seconds before you tuned in. If you
simply announce "citation xxx 5 mile final" the guy in front of you
will assume that you heard his call and may not bother to repeat his
call. If you say "traffic in the pattern please advice", that is a
clear indication that you just tuned in and you did not hear his
previous call. On the other hand, if you did hear his call, you would
say "5 mile final, number two". So, there is a time and place where
"traffic in the area please advice" has some use.

You mean to tell me somebody that can afford a Citation can't afford two
coms. Give me a break.

You claim transmissions on the ground don't contribute to
frequency clutter because those approaching the airport can't hear them,
and now you expect me to be listening for transmissions that I can't
hear?

Transmissions from the air can be heard for a longer distance than
transmissions from the ground. However, they can be heard far enough
away to be useful.

When I'm approaching to enter the pattern, [... t]raffic on the
ground is irrelevant.

I disagree. Traffic on the ground could become traffic in the air by
the time you get there. A ground transmission is a heads-up, which is
better than a surprise.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Alan Gerber wrote:


It depends. At the Class D airport where I fly, the controller won't
clear you to land behind somebody until you report them in sight.


Wow, talk about making an easy job hard.

If you have half a dozen airports in the area that use the same CTAF
frequency, and you have a busy ATC frequency, it is not that easy to
handle both frequencies. Toss in weather and AWOS, it gets busy fast.
What is so offensive about "I am on a 5 mile final, anyone else in the
pattern please let me know"? Does it pose some kind of danger, or cause
confusion? If there are safety reasons, I am willing to listen.



Bill Zaleski wrote:
You wait till 5 miles to start listening to unicom in a Citation that
is going fast, by your admission? Does it have 2 coms? Does it have a
two man crew? I am listening to Unicom way before ATC lets me go, and
that is in a 100 KT spamcan and single pilot. It's not too hard to
monitor a second freq. No, that innane traffic call is not justified.



On 25 Aug 2006 19:09:14 -0700, "Andrew Sarangan"
wrote:

I will admit of having used the "traffic in the area please advice".
However, I think I have a reasonable justification. When ATC drops you
off 5 miles from an uncontrolled airport, you are flying a fast
airplane, you don't have a lot of time to figure out the other
airplanes in the traffic pattern. Someone could have announced a
base-to-final turn couple of seconds before you tuned in. If you
simply announce "citation xxx 5 mile final" the guy in front of you
will assume that you heard his call and may not bother to repeat his
call. If you say "traffic in the pattern please advice", that is a
clear indication that you just tuned in and you did not hear his
previous call. On the other hand, if you did hear his call, you would
say "5 mile final, number two". So, there is a time and place where
"traffic in the area please advice" has some use.



Kris Kortokrax wrote:
Just received the following from the FAA Designee Notification system.
Checked out the AIM on the FAA web site and the wording is included.

Kris

--------------------------------------------------------


The inane practice of using the phrase "any traffic please advise" has
become so wide spread that the FAA has finally included a "do not do
this" in the latest version of the AIM. You will find the following
quote at paragraph 4-1-9 G 1 in the latest version of the AIM:

Self-announce is a procedure whereby pilots broadcast their position or
intended flight activity or ground operation on the designated CTAF.
This procedure is used primarily at airports which do not have an FSS on
the airport. The self-announce procedure should also be used if a pilot
is unable to communicate with the FSS on the designated CTAF. Pilots
stating, "Traffic in the area, please advise" is not a recognized
Self-Announce Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be used
under any condition.

If you do not have a current copy of the AIM, you can reference one
online at:

http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/AIM/

Bob Linenweber, ASI
314-890-4864


OPS DESIGNEE NOTIFICATION SYSTEM

Jose wrote:

You claim transmissions on the ground don't contribute to frequency
clutter because those approaching the airport can't hear them, and now
you expect me to be listening for transmissions that I can't hear?


Transmissions from the air can be heard for a longer distance than
transmissions from the ground. However, they can be heard far enough
away to be useful.


That's funny how you think radio works. If I'm on the ground and make a
transmission that you cannot hear then by definition I will not hear
what you say.

Jonathan Goodish writes:

In article ,
"Dan Luke" wrote:

"Viperdoc" wrote:

Have to agree that "looking" in response to a traffic call is reasonable.
Saying "roger" makes it unclear as to whether you actually have the
traffic in sight.

Both responses are incorrect.

"Traffic in sight (the correct response) makes it very clear that you have
the traffic in sight.

And if you don't have the traffic in sight... ? You say nothing?

You say "Negative Contact".
(Isn't this stuff still in the AIM?)

Jonathan Goodish writes:
Since I fly IFR most of the time, and traffic advisories are most common
in busy terminal areas when I'm trying to find the airport and preparing
for an approach, I probably am not looking for traffic as a priority
UNTIL I receive the traffic advisory. All "negative contact" tells the
controller is that I don't have the traffic in sight; it doesn't tell
him that I'm looking for it because, if I'm busy with a more critical
issue, I might not be.

If you're in VMC, then you are persumed to be looking for traffic.
If you're in IMC, you're not going to be "looking".
What the controller wants to know is if you see it right now.
"Negative Contact".

That's funny how you think radio works. If I'm on the ground and make a transmission that you cannot hear then by definition I will not hear what you say.

Actually, radio doesn't work that way. Transmitters may have different
power, different sensitivity, and different antennas. Although symmetry
is a good first approximation, it is not guaranteed.

But aside from that, if I transmit from the air, I interfere with a much
broader area than if I transmit from the ground (with the same radio).
Therefore, if one is in the air, and the other is on the ground (and
symmetry prevails), it is quite likely that there will be many who can
receive only one side of the conversation.

If Elaine is flying seventy miles away, she may hear the airplane in the
air (and a bunch of others) but is not likely to hear the airplane on
the ground. Seventy miles away she doesn't need to hear either of them.
But she'll need to be closer to hear the one on the ground.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 23:11:55 -0400, Jonathan Goodish
wrote:
And if you don't have the traffic in sight... ? You say nothing?

Nawh, try this, "You mean there's somebody *else* up here?"