joining the traffic pattern quandary

That is the way many people do it, and I have not yet heard of a case
where someone has been nailed for it. however, the guy who will turn
you in for it is probably not the tower controller, but an inspector.

It would be interesting for you to contact your tower personnel and ask
them this question and see if you get the same answer.

But my interpretation was told to me by an FAA inspector, one of the
types who would indeed file on you for it. If that happens, it will
not matter that you have been doing it for years and the tower said
nothing. The FAA's position is that if the tower wanted you to enter
on base, downwind, crosswind, they would have said so. Enter left
traffic means, in the minds of those FAA inspectors I have spoken with,
to go out and get on the 45 and enter the pattern like anybody else.

) wrote:

I just completed the Remedial Instruction Program on a pilot who
entered a traffic pattern at an uncontrolled field and did not abide by
the AIM-recommended entry.

So, are you saying that if I am approaching an uncontrolled airport from
the opposite side and decide that it is safer for me to enter left
crosswind at TPA rather than cross over the airport and make a
descending 405 degree right turn in a high wing to the 45, a witnessing
FAA inspector has grounds to bust me and I will have to take remedial
training?

Hmmm...

--
Peter

wrote in message
oups.com

It would be interesting for you to contact your tower personnel and
ask them this question and see if you get the same answer.

Scenario: Approaching KHGR (Hagerstown, MD) from vicinity of KMRB
(Martinsburg, WV - south of KHGR). Winds are 270@3 (obviously favoring RWY
27). Contact KHGR tower and hear "report 3 mile left base, runway 27."

Are you suggesting that the tower controller is expecting me to overfly the
airport, travel a few miles north of the field, enter the 45, perform a full
circuit just to get back to a 3 mile left base? The controller didn't make
any mention of pattern entry, only the reporting point.

But my interpretation was told to me by an FAA inspector, one of the
types who would indeed file on you for it.

I doubt any respectable inspector would use this as grounds for a complaint.

Enter left
traffic means, in the minds of those FAA inspectors I have spoken
with, to go out and get on the 45 and enter the pattern like anybody
else.

Not at a towered field. That's not "safe, orderly and expeditious" use of
the National Airspace System.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

wrote:
That is the way many people do it, and I have not yet heard of a case
where someone has been nailed for it. however, the guy who will turn
you in for it is probably not the tower controller, but an inspector.

How would the inspector even know?



It would be interesting for you to contact your tower personnel and ask
them this question and see if you get the same answer.

So I says to myself..."Self, how do you want aircraft to enter the
pattern?" And I reply..."Enter from where ever you happen to be."
Thank you self.



But my interpretation was told to me by an FAA inspector, one of the
types who would indeed file on you for it. If that happens, it will
not matter that you have been doing it for years and the tower said
nothing. The FAA's position is that if the tower wanted you to enter
on base, downwind, crosswind, they would have said so. Enter left
traffic means, in the minds of those FAA inspectors I have spoken with,
to go out and get on the 45 and enter the pattern like anybody else.

Baloney.

Newps wrote in news:0PCdnbPEer9pj0LcRVn-
:

How would the inspector even know?

Unfortunately he doesn't have to know - anything. Look at what happened
to Bob Hoover because of a couple of inspectors who knew nothing. An
inspector says you did something wrong, and it's up to you to prove you
didn't, and that's practically impossible to do, because you have to
convince the persons who said you did. Justice, fairness, and truth have
nothing to do with it at all.

--
Regards,

Stan

Newps wrote:



wrote:

That is the way many people do it, and I have not yet heard of a case
where someone has been nailed for it. however, the guy who will turn
you in for it is probably not the tower controller, but an inspector.


How would the inspector even know?



It would be interesting for you to contact your tower personnel and ask
them this question and see if you get the same answer.


So I says to myself..."Self, how do you want aircraft to enter the
pattern?" And I reply..."Enter from where ever you happen to be." Thank
you self.



But my interpretation was told to me by an FAA inspector, one of the
types who would indeed file on you for it. If that happens, it will
not matter that you have been doing it for years and the tower said
nothing. The FAA's position is that if the tower wanted you to enter
on base, downwind, crosswind, they would have said so. Enter left
traffic means, in the minds of those FAA inspectors I have spoken with,
to go out and get on the 45 and enter the pattern like anybody else.


Baloney.


Yes, but we all know (think Bob Hoover) that FAA inspectors can be
idiots and can do a lot of damage with no just cause at all.

I got wondering from the earlier post about these violations as to the
tolerance. For example, if I enter on a 44 or 46 degree angle, am I
open to violation? How about 40 or 50? Are these angles headings
relative to the runway or ground track? Inquiring minds want to know!

In 26 years of flying I've never heard anything as stupid as learning
that some people are actually being written up for this. I don't know
what part of the country the gentleman who posted this is from, but it
certainly isn't from anywhere near where I live. I know are few of the
FAA folks that come to our safety seminars and they are from the real world.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
I got wondering from the earlier post about these violations as to the
tolerance. For example, if I enter on a 44 or 46 degree angle, am I
open to violation? How about 40 or 50? Are these angles headings
relative to the runway or ground track? Inquiring minds want to know!

Matt, I thought you were an engineer or something. Didn't they learn
you anything about measurement in school?

The inspector takes an FAA-standard ham sandwich, lays the long edge
(sliced diagonally) on the runway centerline and sights along the crust.
If there's daylight between the edge of the sandwich and the airplane,
you're toast (so to speak).

Where do you think the phrase, "That approach didn't cut the mustard,
young man!" came from?

wrote in message
...
Consider the following FARs,
§ 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G
airspace.
b) Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without
an operating control tower in Class G airspace-
(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to
the left ....
....
The question could be asked, how do you join the pattern, since when
attempting same you are obviously "approaching to land at an airport"

Some observations from a non-US perspective.

The wording in the FARs is almost identical to that in the ICAO Rules of the
Air, and the rules of almost every state. But standard joining technique
differs from state to state.

In the UK for example, a standard 'overhead' join is to arrive overhead the
airport at 1000 ft above the traffic pattern, and from that point on make
all turns in the direction of the pattern (i.e.usually left). The descent
to pattern altitude is made on the 'deadside' of the runway (i.e. opposite
the pattern), and the aircraft joins the pattern on a crosswind leg at the
upwind end of the runway. Things get a little difficult on the deadside if
some are turning right, some left.

I suspect the wording is preserved in that form because it avoids yet
another difference to international standards, but the interpretation varies
a little from state to state. The interpretation of 'approaching to land'
by the US authorities does not seem to preclude a right turn to *join* the
pattern.

Julian Scarfe

In the UK for example, a standard 'overhead' join is to arrive overhead the
airport at 1000 ft above the traffic pattern, and from that point on make
all turns in the direction of the pattern (i.e.usually left). The descent
to pattern altitude is made on the 'deadside' of the runway (i.e. opposite
the pattern), and the aircraft joins the pattern on a crosswind leg at the
upwind end of the runway.

So one normally crosses in front of oncoming traffic at pattern
altitude? (presumably the aircraft climbing out on takeoff hasn't yet
reached pattern altitude, but climb rates vary)

Jose
--
Money: What you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Gene Whitt wrote:


The FAA approach to improving his flying was to ground him for
90-days. The charge was flying within 500' of another aircraft.
This aircraft happened to be taxiing on a parallel taxiway to the
runway being buzzed.

There's no rule that you can't get within 500' of another aircraft.
However, you can't get within 500' of a person on the ground unless
you're landing.

91.119(c) states that aircraft "may not be operated closer than 500 feet to
any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." I would argue that an airplane
(on the ground, no less) is a vehicle.


This isn't an isolated bust. They got a lear pilot making a low pass
on the same charge. Low passes aren't "a lower altitude necessary for
landing" so you better make sure you maintain the minimum altitudes.

500' is plenty low for a low pass.

But what about the "really low" passes that you can use to teach students to
flare? I admit that I can't remember a student not touching the runway
slightly, but I guess I'll stop announcing "low approach". :-)

-Rob