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#1
February 7th 05, 01:36 AM
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When does IFR begin in VFR?
I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC. I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did. I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance. I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as I'm told. So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.wizardofdraws.com More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.cartoonclipart.com 
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#2
February 7th 05, 01:58 AM
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Hi, Jeff -
You are not under IFR until you have received an IFR clearance including the words "cleared to". If you departed VFR (without an IFR clearance and release), you are not IFR and must obey VF Rules. Once airborne, you contact ATC with something like "ABC Approach (or center), N1234 off Podunk Field, IFR to Niceville, request clearance." They will assign you a squawk code, wait to identify you on radar, then give you your clearance and instructions (inlcuding altitude). Until then, you maintain VFR, including altitude. But see http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html . Stan "Wizard of Draws" wrote in message news:BE2C303C.4C813%jeffbTAKEOUTALLCAPS@wizardofdr aws.com... I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC. I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did. I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance. I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as I'm told. So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.wizardofdraws.com More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.cartoonclipart.com
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#4
February 7th 05, 02:11 AM
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On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws
wrote: So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? The salient items of a clearance that tell you you are operating under IFR a 1. Clearance Limit 2. Route (which could be "as filed") 3. Altitude You did state that the plan was to "open your flight plan in the air". If your only conversation with ATC went as you report: ======================= Jeff: XYZ approach, N123WD ATC: N123WD, squawk 5547 ====================== Then at the time you were given a squawk code, you were still operating under VFR. You had not received any clearance from ATC. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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#5
February 8th 05, 03:11 AM
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On 2/6/05 9:11 PM, in article ,
"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote: On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws wrote: So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? The salient items of a clearance that tell you you are operating under IFR a 1. Clearance Limit 2. Route (which could be "as filed") 3. Altitude You did state that the plan was to "open your flight plan in the air". If your only conversation with ATC went as you report: ======================= Jeff: XYZ approach, N123WD ATC: N123WD, squawk 5547 ====================== Then at the time you were given a squawk code, you were still operating under VFR. You had not received any clearance from ATC. Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) Your scenario was on the money, thanks. -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.wizardofdraws.com More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.cartoonclipart.com
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#6
February 7th 05, 02:46 AM
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Wizard of Draws wrote:
I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC. I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did. I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance. I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as I'm told. So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT acronym). What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan". In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR, the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming class E airspace).
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#7
February 7th 05, 02:08 PM
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I could argue that "cleared to" is by itself insufficent. Even more significant
is to hear "maintain XXXXX altitude." Roy Smith wrote: Wizard of Draws wrote: I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC. I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did. I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance. I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as I'm told. So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT acronym). What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan". In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR, the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming class E airspace).
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#8
February 7th 05, 07:45 PM
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On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:08:37 -0800, wrote:
I could argue that "cleared to" is by itself insufficent. Even more significant is to hear "maintain XXXXX altitude." Shouldn't there also be a "route" included? (i.e. Cleared to xxx, via as filed, maintain 6000) Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
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#9
February 11th 05, 07:37 PM
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True, but the "magic" for IFR students to listen to is the "cleared
to". The rest could happen when VFR. A lot of students have a hard time understanding the difference between radar services for instrument approaches (practice approaches) and IFR approaches. Its easier to train students to listen for the magic "cleared to " (the smart guys will ask, "What about 'cleared to Land'"). BTW: Ron, will I see you in Mexico weekend after next with the rest of us in the Mooney group? We're going down to pet grey whales. -Robert, CFI
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#10
February 8th 05, 03:19 AM
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On 2/6/05 9:46 PM, in article ,
"Roy Smith" wrote: Wizard of Draws wrote: I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC. I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did. I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance. I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as I'm told. So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR altitude until I was given specific instructions? You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT acronym). What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan". In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR, the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming class E airspace). Thanks for answering. Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first. It was a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get clearance on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a plan in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work off. I suppose I should have used the word 'expected' instead of required. -- Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.wizardofdraws.com More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic http://www.cartoonclipart.com
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