i think I flew into class c airspace accidentally withoutestablishing communication

On Jan 26, 8:59*pm, wrote:

Every time I have dealt with other pilots, I was under the impression
that we were somehow united as a group. *I now realize that is not
entirely true.

All you have to do is read this NG for about two minutes and you will
see that pilots are not united as a group! But it's just like every
other NG out there, so I guess pilots are no different than any other
group of human beings.

In any NG if you write a post describing something stupid you did, you
can expect a certain amount of, let's call it friction, in response.
But don't let it stop you, or anyone else reading this, from posting
your mistakes here. One of the real purposes of this NG is for us to
learn from each other. It takes courage to go into a public forum
like this and confess your mistakes for all the world to see. Not
everyone has the guts to do it. I am glad you did.

Phil

wrote:
I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression that I was not concerned for
the safety of others. I am familiar with the area we were in, but I
made a serious mistake at night. I do appreciate all the options you
all have laid out for me. I will fill out the NASA form immediately.
And why on Earth would someone put my name in the thread? That just
seems uncalled for.

It was very tacky for Larry to do that but it is what can be expected
form Larry.

Keep in mind though you did post with enough info that anyone could have
found your full name.

WingFlaps wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:38 am, wrote:
I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression that I was not concerned for
the safety of others. I am familiar with the area we were in, but I
made a serious mistake at night. I do appreciate all the options you
all have laid out for me. I will fill out the NASA form immediately.
And why on Earth would someone put my name in the thread? That just
seems uncalled for.

I'm not yet a pilot, but it sounds like you were acting as if you were
flying IFR -how else could you be thrown off course by the GPS? I've
not done my night rating work but I've been told that flying VFR at
night requires constant attention to lights, compass heading(s)/
bearings and gloomy shadows to know your position. I think the GPS
should be considered to be only an aid for VFR pilots, not the primary
navigation tool (which is eyes, brain and chart) and if I am right in
my student pilot opinion, the autopilot should be slaved to compass
and position checked by GPS -not dictated by GPS (until you are IFR).
I would welcome more experienced pilots to comment on this -should a
VFR pilot slave the autopilot to GPS or compass?

You started a good thread here and it's great that you admit your
mistake for us to learn from it.

Cheers



What if you are VFR over a cloud layer? There are lots of times that
GPS, VOR and even ADF are the primary navigation aids for VFR pilots.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote in
:

WingFlaps wrote:
On Jan 27, 6:38 am, wrote:
I'm sorry if I gave anyone the impression that I was not concerned
for
the safety of others. I am familiar with the area we were in, but I
made a serious mistake at night. I do appreciate all the options
you
all have laid out for me. I will fill out the NASA form
immediately.
And why on Earth would someone put my name in the thread? That just
seems uncalled for.

I'm not yet a pilot, but it sounds like you were acting as if you
were
flying IFR -how else could you be thrown off course by the GPS? I've
not done my night rating work but I've been told that flying VFR at
night requires constant attention to lights, compass heading(s)/
bearings and gloomy shadows to know your position. I think the GPS
should be considered to be only an aid for VFR pilots, not the
primary
navigation tool (which is eyes, brain and chart) and if I am right in
my student pilot opinion, the autopilot should be slaved to compass
and position checked by GPS -not dictated by GPS (until you are IFR).
I would welcome more experienced pilots to comment on this -should a
VFR pilot slave the autopilot to GPS or compass?

You started a good thread here and it's great that you admit your
mistake for us to learn from it.

Cheers



What if you are VFR over a cloud layer? There are lots of times that
GPS, VOR and even ADF are the primary navigation aids for VFR pilots.


Well, there are other, more traditional, methods that are really pretty
essential if you're going to do that. 1 in 60 rule, for instance.
Determinging drift from aircraft ref points and celestial bodies, that
sort of stuff.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


What if you are VFR over a cloud layer? There are lots of times that
GPS, VOR and even ADF are the primary navigation aids for VFR pilots.


Well, there are other, more traditional, methods that are really pretty
essential if you're going to do that. 1 in 60 rule, for instance.
Determinging drift from aircraft ref points and celestial bodies, that
sort of stuff.

Bertie


Last time I checked celestial navigation wasn't in the PP requirements
and use of a VOR was.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...

Last time I checked celestial navigation wasn't in the PP requirements and
use of a VOR was.


When did you last check? "VOR" does not appear in Part 61.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote in news:13prvb8h2m12219
@news.supernews.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


What if you are VFR over a cloud layer? There are lots of times that
GPS, VOR and even ADF are the primary navigation aids for VFR pilots.


Well, there are other, more traditional, methods that are really pretty
essential if you're going to do that. 1 in 60 rule, for instance.
Determinging drift from aircraft ref points and celestial bodies, that
sort of stuff.

Bertie


Last time I checked celestial navigation wasn't in the PP requirements
and use of a VOR was.


I know, but going vfr on top is kinda heavy territory for someone with a
fresh ppl anyway.

How many know the 1/60 rule?


Bertie

On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:23:42 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote in
:

What if you are VFR over a cloud layer? There are lots of times that
GPS, VOR and even ADF are the primary navigation aids for VFR pilots.

I still maintain that it is imperative to have a course-line plotted
on a paper chart for all but the shortest VFR flights.

Consider the VFR over the top flight whose pilot hasn't plotted the
course on a paper chart and suffers a sudden electrical system
failure. Terrestrial landmarks are obscured by the undercast, so it's
not possible to estimate bearings from them. Barring the use of hand
held electronics, how is he to ascertain his current position and
route to a safe landing?

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote in news:13prvb8h2m12219
@news.supernews.com:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

What if you are VFR over a cloud layer? There are lots of times that
GPS, VOR and even ADF are the primary navigation aids for VFR pilots.

Well, there are other, more traditional, methods that are really pretty
essential if you're going to do that. 1 in 60 rule, for instance.
Determinging drift from aircraft ref points and celestial bodies, that
sort of stuff.

Bertie

Last time I checked celestial navigation wasn't in the PP requirements
and use of a VOR was.


I know, but going vfr on top is kinda heavy territory for someone with a
fresh ppl anyway.

How many know the 1/60 rule?


Bertie


I didn't say anything about someone with a fresh PPL. The person I was
responding to (a student) was saying that a non-instrument rated pilot
shouldn't be using GPS, IFR... as primary navigation.

I've heard the term 1/60 rule but don't know what it is.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote in message
...
Last time I checked celestial navigation wasn't in the PP requirements and
use of a VOR was.


When did you last check? "VOR" does not appear in Part 61.



You're such a dick Steven. Does the initial P stand for penis?

The practical test standard does cover navigational aids and you know it.

B. TASK: NAVIGATION SYSTEMS AND RADAR SERVICES
(ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-23/FAA-H-8083-25; Navigation
Equipment Operation Manuals, AIM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to navigation systems
and radar services.
2. Demonstrates the ability to use an airborne electronic navigation
system.
3. Locates the airplane's position using the navigation system.
4. Intercepts and tracks a given course, radial or bearing, as
appropriate.
5. Recognizes and describes the indication of station passage, if
appropriate.
6. Recognizes signal loss and takes appropriate action.
7. Uses proper communication procedures when utilizing radar
services.
8. Maintains the appropriate altitude, ±200 feet (60 meters) and
headings ±15°.