RC madness

That's called OLC. Sadly, the RC is "studying" that as well... ;-)

Probably will be a new US task type by spring. ;-)

Sigh.

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 9:46:57 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
That's called OLC. Sadly, the RC is "studying" that as well... ;-)

Probably will be a new US task type by spring. ;-)

Sigh.

Not quite, Sean. To pull a quote from his proposal...

"...as long as they file the task with the competition before launch." So, not really at all like OLC. Task is declared before takeoff. A self assigned task. And every team would likely have a different one. Wouldn't that be fun for the scorer!

At 15:51 22 December 2015, Steve Leonard wrote:
On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 9:46:57 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
That's called OLC. Sadly, the RC is "studying" that as well... ;-)

Probably will be a new US task type by spring. ;-)

Sigh.

Not quite, Sean. To pull a quote from his proposal...

"...as long as they file the task with the competition before launch."
So,
not really at all like OLC. Task is declared before takeoff. A self
assigned task. And every team would likely have a different one.
Wouldn't
that be fun for the scorer!

Not really. IGC files have been able to have tasks declared pre-take-off
for many years.

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-5, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 12:26 22 December 2015, Jim White wrote:
Leeching scenarios

1) I am in the lead going into the final day. If I start at the same
tim
as the guy in 2nd place and follow him tightly around the task
finishin
within a minute or two, I have won the competition. Oh, but he
launche
after me, how do I find him? Flarm will do it.

2) I am in second place going in to the last day and do not want
the leade
to find me before the start because if I can get away without bein
followed I stand a better chance of taking the pot. Place foil over
aerial
Must have been a malfunction!

3) I am reaching the bottom of my soaring band and need to find
a climb. D
I take the 2kt climb I have found here or fly 3kms ~ 300ft to the
5kt clim
that another glider has just taken at my height? Flarm does it
again.

4) I am team flying but no longer need to wait at the top of a
thermal fo
my partner to say he is ready to leave (in order to stay in touch
with eac
other) as he can follow comfortably at a distance when he is
ready.

5) I am in the glide flying at my chosen glide speed for the 4kt
thermal
am expecting to find. I see on the Flarm display that the thermals
ahea
are actually producing 6kts not 4. Stick forward!

6) I am in the glide flying at my chosen glide speed for the 4kt
thermal
am expecting to find. I see on the Flarm display that the thermals
ahea
are actually only producing 2kts not 4. Ease up.

7) My partner calls that he is in a 6kt thermal somewhere up
ahead. I can'
see him. He could give me a code which I could then decode to
identif
where but that takes time and effort for both pilots. A glance at
the Flar
display tells me whether I can risk a glide to join him.

8) I am flying an AAT and have entered the first area. I am
considerin
turning early because the sky ahead looks poor. Wait, let's check
the Flar
display to see what the other guys are doing ahead and verify tha
decision.

9) I am flying an AAT and am on the penultimate leg. The last leg
is
reciprocal to the finish. Knowing whether pilots are fat or
struggling o
final glide will help me decide my tactics for the remainder of the
flight
I will check with Flarm!

If you do not consider that Flarm and Flarm leeching can improve
a pilots
result (even the winners) then you are unlikely to be an
experience
competition pilot.

Jim

So here is the thing. Why consider a solution as dangerous as
crippling FLARM when there are other solutions. It is not necessary
for TPs to be ground features anymore, they can be any GPS co-
ordinate. So instead of a competition director setting the task with
TPs why not just set the task length and allow pilots to choose their
TP, not restricted to any point except perhaps the last TP before the
airfield. You could even require a finish track without specifying a
point. You could specify the number of TPs to be used and even
minimum leg lengths but the pilots select their own TP, which they
can keep to themselves or share, as long as they file the task with
the competition before launch. This allows team flying but someone
wanting to "hide" is able to do so. It is a sort of AAT set on distance
as opposed to time.
Solves the leeching problem and as an additional benefit means that
gliders will not longer be forced closer to others at TPs.
I know it is not perfect but it is another valid solution, perhaps not
an attractive one but there again crippling FLARM is not particularly
attractive.

i'll keep my reply short. because that's silly and it would ruin racing. at that point it's basically justa glider meet-up. what we should do is fly more AST and keep the AAT cyliders smaller than they are.

It's not crippling flarm if you ask me. Now read that twice. If you ask me.... that will be my reply. i think everyone in the "if i can't see everyone camp" are being too conservative. flarm should notify of impending threats, and 1 mile notice is plenty, 2 miles for oncomimg traffic. if my math is righ, at 300 MPH closing speed (both gliders effectively flat out), that still gives you 12 seconds to SEE AND AVOID the traffic. count out 12 seconds and think about how long that is.

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 8:40:49 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
SNIP that still gives you 12 seconds to SEE AND AVOID the traffic. count out 12 seconds and think about how long that is.

Ok now think about the glider going your direction you think might be just above to your left, and the one you think might be just below to your right (they are not threats and are invisible on your tactical display due to stealth). Then get two alarms indicating closing traffic ahead at 12 and 11 seconds to impact. Start counting. You cannot make a sudden turn or swoop, you do not know where the gliders beside you are. You cannot call them, you don't know who they are. Now at 5 seconds spot the third glider also closing from ahead with the other two (warning was buried under the others). You have 5 gliders to miss and 5 seconds to sort it out. Two of them are somewhere alongside, but you don't know where. The three going the other direction are beginning to visually pick up you three and are scattering in random directions as are your two companions. Now you are getting alarms from every direction. Three people have the radio keyed and all you hear is howling. Five, four, three, two one, BANG. Still plenty of time?

With (non-stealth) Flarm, this scenario doesn't even raise your heart rate, you knew where everyone was 7 miles out, made a leisurely 3 deg course change, and don't even see them visually when they pass safely on your left. Believe me, this happens out west.

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 2:15:06 AM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
At 04:47 22 December 2015, JS wrote:
Thought the "RC madness" thread would have a link to a crazy Radio
Controlled glider contest or DS video.
Jim


Me too, seeing that the FAA has just mandated that RC Soaring Pilots must
now register themselves and their sailplanes in a national database.

Are you sure this is not limited to drones?
Model airplanes have been flown under an operating agreement between the FAA and AMA for decades.
Models flown under those guidelines have license numbers on them now.
Can you guide to where you got this info?
Thx
UH

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 12:17:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 2:15:06 AM UTC-5, Mike C wrote:
At 04:47 22 December 2015, JS wrote:
Thought the "RC madness" thread would have a link to a crazy Radio
Controlled glider contest or DS video.
Jim


Me too, seeing that the FAA has just mandated that RC Soaring Pilots must
now register themselves and their sailplanes in a national database.

Are you sure this is not limited to drones?
Model airplanes have been flown under an operating agreement between the FAA and AMA for decades.
Models flown under those guidelines have license numbers on them now.
Can you guide to where you got this info?
Thx
UH

effective yesterday - https://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 8:40:49 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
SNIP that still gives you 12 seconds to SEE AND AVOID the traffic. count out 12 seconds and think about how long that is.

Ok now think about the glider going your direction you think might be just above to your left, and the one you think might be just below to your right (they are not threats and are invisible on your tactical display due to stealth). Then get two alarms indicating closing traffic ahead at 12 and 11 seconds to impact. Start counting. You cannot make a sudden turn or swoop, you do not know where the gliders beside you are. You cannot call them, you don't know who they are. Now at 5 seconds spot the third glider also closing from ahead with the other two (warning was buried under the others). You have 5 gliders to miss and 5 seconds to sort it out. Two of them are somewhere alongside, but you don't know where. The three going the other direction are beginning to visually pick up you three and are scattering in random directions as are your two companions. Now you are getting alarms from every direction. Three people have the radio keyed and all you hear is howling. Five, four, three, two one, BANG. Still plenty of time?

With (non-stealth) Flarm, this scenario doesn't even raise your heart rate, you knew where everyone was 7 miles out, made a leisurely 3 deg course change, and don't even see them visually when they pass safely on your left. Believe me, this happens out west.

We routinely have dozens of gliders operating in the Appalachians on good ridge days. We've done this for 30 years without gliders bumping into each other left and right. It's not at all uncommon to have the scenario you describe, only instead of 1 oncoming glider it's 4 or 5. And, we've got two fewer degrees of freedom, since there's rocks and trees to one side and below.

Not making light of it, but sort of wondering how it's possible we survived at all before FLARM with no warning at all?

P3

The answer is that many glider pilots did not survive; read
Bruno Gatenbrink's article.
Installing Flarm is a no brainer.
Seat belts, crash helmets, air bags, NCAP ratings.. modern
nonsense eh?

On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, December 22, 2015 at 8:40:49 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
SNIP that still gives you 12 seconds to SEE AND AVOID the traffic. count out 12 seconds and think about how long that is.

Ok now think about the glider going your direction you think might be just above to your left, and the one you think might be just below to your right (they are not threats and are invisible on your tactical display due to stealth). Then get two alarms indicating closing traffic ahead at 12 and 11 seconds to impact. Start counting. You cannot make a sudden turn or swoop, you do not know where the gliders beside you are. You cannot call them, you don't know who they are. Now at 5 seconds spot the third glider also closing from ahead with the other two (warning was buried under the others). You have 5 gliders to miss and 5 seconds to sort it out. Two of them are somewhere alongside, but you don't know where. The three going the other direction are beginning to visually pick up you three and are scattering in random directions as are your two companions. Now you are getting alarms from every direction. Three people have the radio keyed and all you hear is howling. Five, four, three, two one, BANG. Still plenty of time?

With (non-stealth) Flarm, this scenario doesn't even raise your heart rate, you knew where everyone was 7 miles out, made a leisurely 3 deg course change, and don't even see them visually when they pass safely on your left. Believe me, this happens out west.

you know what i'm gonna do in that scenario? i'm gonna open my eyes, and look up. then i'm going to pull up and to my right while making sure i'm not going to hit someone above me as i'm doing so. that's gonna reduce the closing speed and give me more time to spot the traffic. if it's really desperate, i'll pull my water (if i happen to be carrying any) to increase my visibility to others until i think the danger has passed. use every resource you can and get creative. no amount of anything besides a forcefield can eliminate two aircraft from rubbing. i accept that every time i get in. I also accept that flarm reduces the risk significantly.