change in ADS-B rule interpretation!

On Saturday, February 14, 2015 at 10:20:10 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._in_flight.jpg




On 2/14/2015 8:06 AM, Andy Blackburn
wrote:



On Friday, February 13, 2015 at 2:47:45 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:


Unlike a transponder UAT Out does not interoperable with TCAS, certainly would never cause an RA to be issued. That big old jet airliner could fly right though you with no warning... its' simply just universally assumed that any aircraft getting near an airliner, fast-jet etc. at a minimum has a transponder (or a transponder and UAT Out, or a transponder with 1090ES Out, but *never* UAT Out only).



This is a critical point.

Most of the traffic out there, if it is carrying any form of ADS-B Out at all, is likely carrying 1090ES Out today (it's the only variant used in Europe and the only variant aircraft flying in Class A in the US carry). The fact that you cannot substitute ADS-B Out carriage for transponder carriage under the regulations is precisely because ADS-B does not activate the RA collision avoidance in TCAS. Take that plus the antenna diversity requirements under the FARs and it seems likely that most aircraft owners in the US will find it easier to equip with a Mode S transponder plus ADS-B 1090 ES Out plus either 1090 ES In or dual-link ADS-B in (it's pretty cheap to provide 1090ES and UAT In "just in case" and to get weather data services - most OEMs are doing this and it would be nice if a future version of PowerFLARM did this too).

I find it difficult to understand why anyone would equip with the duplicate transmitter, antennas, and endure the maintenance, etc, to equip a transponder plus ADS-B UAT Out when the simple solution is to get a Mode S and (at some point) add a (less expensive every day) GPS source to upgrade the transponder to 1090ES Out. The number of scenarios where you are outside ATC SSR coverage but within line of sight to an ADS-R ground station to pick up whatever misguided souls decided to equip with UAT Out only (and not a transponder) are too remote to bother with, and certainly not worth giving up TCAS. Yes, you could always equip with EVERYTHING, but your aircraft will be a porcupine of antennas and it isn't at all clear that you gain very much.

For gliders the best migration path is pretty clear: if you fly mostly with other gliders, get a PowerFLARM, if you fly near a busy airport with a lot power traffic, get a Mode S transponder that can upgrade to 1090 ES Out as the OEMs figure out how to get cheaper GPS sources to market. If you are worried about both scenarios, get both bits of gear.

9B






--

Dan Marotta

Dan, are those the new PowerFlarm B-X antennae? I bet they want you to pay for a license for every one of them!

Darryl, thanks for the information. It's a lot to digest.

We are under the Class B, well within the 30nm veil. 3 of or 4 club gliders have Trig transponders. Many of our private owners are running trig or power flarm.
Our concern is the ADSB out requirement for the tow plane. We have an old basic Mode C transponder, not a nice 1090ES capability, and no GPS recieve in the tow plane. I've been looking at some of the FreeFlight equipment for adsb out only, and the seem to be UAT only. Some of their In -Out equipment would offer wifi connections for those that may fly with a tablet. But honestly, in the Pawnee there is not much room.

We are now within 5 yrs of the deadline. I can't see the FAA letting the mandate of 2020 slipping. It would be great to hear from other operators as to their installations.

BillT

Bill T wrote:
Darryl, thanks for the information. It's a lot to digest.

We are under the Class B, well within the 30nm veil. 3 of or 4 club
gliders have Trig transponders. Many of our private owners are running trig or power flarm.
Our concern is the ADSB out requirement for the tow plane. We have an old
basic Mode C transponder, not a nice 1090ES capability, and no GPS
recieve in the tow plane. I've been looking at some of the FreeFlight
equipment for adsb out only, and the seem to be UAT only. Some of their
In -Out equipment would offer wifi connections for those that may fly
with a tablet. But honestly, in the Pawnee there is not much room.

We are now within 5 yrs of the deadline. I can't see the FAA letting the
mandate of 2020 slipping. It would be great to hear from other operators
as to their installations.

BillT

Bill, I empathize with the cost and hassle of all this. Yes don't bet
against the 2020 mandate happening.

Yes the low-cost FreeFlight systems are UAT-Out only, just not technology I
would want to see used around a glider fleet because of PowerFLARM 1090ES
compatibility.

I would just keep an eye on the market for Mode S transponders with 1090ES
out capability, and especially watch out for bundled transponder/GPS
systems that are likely to come out with built-in WAAS/IFR GPS that meets
the 2020 mandate requirements.

I know lots of towplanes with old large Mode C transponders that if a
upgraded to Mode S may just end up junking those transponders, some have
Becker Mode C transponders and they would still be great candidates for
transplanting to gliders. Andy's comments on antennas is relevant here too,
don't forget that different installations require additional antennas,
integration to a common altitude encoder, squawk control knobs/displays
etc. Some of the install costs may be non-trivial.

I don't know if your towplanes have PowerFLARM or not but I suspect any
ADS-B In system may just be too expensive and complex in a towplane and
won't integrate with PowerFLARM so can't be in the same display/will have
duplicate traffic reports etc.

As 2020 gets closer I also hope clubs and FBOs operating towplanes near
areas requiring ADS-B out (or wanting to add it anyhow) share what they are
doing.

Has anyone done a total cost of ownership analysis comparing UAT vs 1090ES for an aircraft with a Mode C transponder already installed? - including installation, antennae, and some allowance for the fact that the Mode C unit may need replacing anyway eventually. From a casual scan it seems like going 1090ES Out isn't any more expensive than UAT Out for the boxes alone (despite the fact that you are tossing the Mode C box when you go 1090ES). But with 1090EA you also save on cost and hassle of installation and maintenance of duplicate transmitters and, most important, don't get painted into a corner being incompatible with Flarm 1090ES In, since towplanes spend more time close to glider than any other aircraft type.

Andy (9B)

Andy Blackburn wrote:
Has anyone done a total cost of ownership analysis comparing UAT vs
1090ES for an aircraft with a Mode C transponder already installed? -
including installation, antennae, and some allowance for the fact that
the Mode C unit may need replacing anyway eventually. From a casual scan
it seems like going 1090ES Out isn't any more expensive than UAT Out for
the boxes alone (despite the fact that you are tossing the Mode C box
when you go 1090ES). But with 1090EA you also save on cost and hassle of
installation and maintenance of duplicate transmitters and, most
important, don't get painted into a corner being incompatible with Flarm
1090ES In, since towplanes spend more time close to glider than any other aircraft type.

Andy (9B)

I would be surprised if any towplanes have ADS-B out installed because of
cost, or anybody who has bothered to get a serious installation quote. Who
wants to rush into this with rapid changing product availability? Right
now there are still very limited choices, especially for certified aircraft
(there are just not many ADS-B Out or suitable GPS boxes available, and any
337 approval requires use of previous STC approved GPS and ADS-B Out box
combination).

The only ADS-B related thing I would do with a towplane today is if
required to or wanting to install a Transponder I would make sure it can
support 1090ES Out as required for the 2020 Mandate. Like a Trig TT-22,
TT-33 or Garmin GTX-330. Otherwise it is just so early to want to install
this stuff. ... But certainly consider installing a PowerFLARM in a
towplane....

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 9:37:47 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:

I would be surprised if any towplanes have ADS-B out installed because of
cost, or anybody who has bothered to get a serious installation quote. Who
wants to rush into this with rapid changing product availability? Right
now there are still very limited choices, especially for certified aircraft
(there are just not many ADS-B Out or suitable GPS boxes available, and any
337 approval requires use of previous STC approved GPS and ADS-B Out box
combination).

The only ADS-B related thing I would do with a towplane today is if
required to or wanting to install a Transponder I would make sure it can
support 1090ES Out as required for the 2020 Mandate. Like a Trig TT-22,
TT-33 or Garmin GTX-330. Otherwise it is just so early to want to install
this stuff. ... But certainly consider installing a PowerFLARM in a
towplane....

Yes - absolutely no need to rush - especially for towplanes and particularly ones that are adequately equipped for their current flying environment. Things are evolving too rapidly in the ADS-B world and costs should come down.

The invisible hand of the market is already at work. Someone listed a FreeFlight 1201 GPS/WAAS source box on ebay for only $495 due to an avionics "upgrade." The market is moving faster than we think when someare already upgrading fron their current ADS-B solution. Normal price is about $3K. Someone should snap that up (I would but I'm in Canada so not required.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREEFLIGHT-G...435d67&vxp=mtr

wrote:
The invisible hand of the market is already at work. Someone listed a
FreeFlight 1201 GPS/WAAS source box on ebay for only $495 due to an
avionics "upgrade." The market is moving faster than we think when
someare already upgrading fron their current ADS-B solution. Normal price
is about $3K. Someone should snap that up (I would but I'm in Canada so not required.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREEFLIGHT-G...435d67&vxp=mtr

Last year at Oshkosh I talked to a bunch of the avionics manufacturers with
existing ADS-B boxes. Just about all of them were working on various self
contained drop in boxes. I expect the price for one of these boxes to come
down in the near future.

Pete