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ILS Rwy 20 at Marion, ILL
In the latest Jepp update for Marion, ILL, the procedure has changed
to what looks for all the world like a LOC approach. The minimums for the ILS have been replaced by ‘NA’, and the DA has been replaced by an MDA. Yet the title of the approach is still ILS Rwy 20. Why didn’t they change the name of the procedure to LOC Rwy 20? -Robert Scott Ypsilanti, Michigan (Reply through this forum, not by direct e-mail to me, as automatic reply address is fake.) |
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"Robert Scott" wrote in message ... In the latest Jepp update for Marion, ILL, the procedure has changed to what looks for all the world like a LOC approach. The minimums for the ILS have been replaced by 'NA', and the DA has been replaced by an MDA. Yet the title of the approach is still ILS Rwy 20. Why didn't they change the name of the procedure to LOC Rwy 20? The NACO charts still show S-ILS minima, a current NOTAM indicates S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. Looks like Jeppesen incorporated the NOTAM into their new plate. That seems reasonable, but they don't have the authority to rename approaches. My guess is the GS is out of service temporarily. When it's returned to service the NOTAM will be dropped and Jeppesen will issue a plate with ILS minima. |
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Robert Scott wrote: In the latest Jepp update for Marion, ILL, the procedure has changed to what looks for all the world like a LOC approach. The minimums for the ILS have been replaced by ‘NA’, and the DA has been replaced by an MDA. Yet the title of the approach is still ILS Rwy 20. Why didn’t they change the name of the procedure to LOC Rwy 20? -Robert Scott Ypsilanti, Michigan (Reply through this forum, not by direct e-mail to me, as automatic reply address is fake.) When all else fails, check the NOTAMS: FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN |
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If your "why" refers to the OPs "why" (why didn't they change the title?),
the answer has already been posted...Cap'n Jepp can't change procedure titles on his own. I very much doubt that NACO can, without a lot of paper shuffling. They are just chart printers, not procedures developers. Bob Gardner "Stan Gosnell" wrote in message ... wrote in nk.net: When all else fails, check the NOTAMS: FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN But that doesn't answer the OP's question - why? -- Regards, Stan "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin |
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Since the LOC MAP is now closer to the FAF (4.57 NM vs 4.90 NM), my
guess is that they extended the runway at the approach end, since the LOC MAP would be at the runway threshold. This would put the runway point of intercept for the glideslope (RPI) too far from the new threshold for an ILS, and the ILS TCH would now be too high for an ILS without a waiver. The LOC could continue with a different FAF to MAP distance, but not the ILS. As far as the name, it's still an ILS procedure, except that the glideslope is currently NA. To change the name would require NFPO to create an amendment and have that published in the National Flight Data Digest. They are probably creating an amendment, but rather than change the name, they would be amending the ILS data to have it published with a new FAF, glideslope intercept point, and TCH to match wherever they would be installing the new glideslope (assuming the runway was lengthened). JPH Stan Gosnell wrote: wrote in nk.net: When all else fails, check the NOTAMS: FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN But that doesn't answer the OP's question - why? |
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I recently had a similiar experience at Ponca City where the FSS said
the ILS was operational during the pre-flight briefing. Center cleared me for the ILS-17 approach. I queried about the lack of GS information, they said all was well as far as they knew. About 3 miles past the OM,Center asked me if I wanted to switch to the LOC approach. I didn't, so Missed approach, no GS, minimum conditions, slight icing conditions. Anyway, after landing and reviewing what I had done wrong, I found that the FSS will not read you all the notams unless you specifically ask. DUATS will not provide all the notams. During the review of the flight, I read the notam that was similar to the one below, I read all the FAA abbreviations list, and I can not find what, exactly, "S-ILS" means. Just like the notam below, I don't see where the ILS is OTS? What does "S-ILS" mean? Greg FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN |
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gregscheetah wrote:
I recently had a similiar experience at Ponca City where the FSS said the ILS was operational during the pre-flight briefing. Did the briefer specifically say that the ILS was operational, or did he just fail to mention the GS OTS notam? Anyway, after landing and reviewing what I had done wrong, I found that the FSS will not read you all the notams unless you specifically ask. DUATS will not provide all the notams. What a F***ed up system. They tells you about unlit cell-phone towers 300 feet AGL 4 miles from the airport, but leave out important stuff like the GS being OTS. Some of this may have made sense in the days of teletypes, but it's assinine today. Mapquest gives me more complete information about my drive to the airport than DUATS gives me about my flight. During the review of the flight, I read the notam that was similar to the one below, I read all the FAA abbreviations list, and I can not find what, exactly, "S-ILS" means. Just like the notam below, I don't see where the ILS is OTS? What does "S-ILS" mean? FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN The S means "straight-in" (as opposed to circling). I'm looking at the NOS chart (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/05215I20.PDF). It's got three lines of minimums: S-ILS 20, S-LOC 20, and CIRCLING. Tearing apart the notam piece by piece, it says: FDC 5/1241 This is Flight Data Center notam number 5/1241. I think that's just the 1241st notam issued in 2005. - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, What approach this applies to; i.e. the approach titled "ILS RWY 20" at Williamson County Regional airport in Marion IL. AMDT 11A... The version of the approach it applies to. If your plate doesn't say AMDT 11A on it, you're applying the changes to an out-of-date plate. S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. The minimums shown in the line titled "S-ILS" in the minimums section of the plate is not authorized (i.e. may not be used). DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. The distance shown on the profile view from the FAF (JONNY) to the MAP should be changed from 4.9 NM to 4.57 (bottom-right of the plate). They leave it to you to work out new timings. At 90 kts, it's a change from 3:16 to 3:03. There's no information as to *WHY* they moved the MAP, but if you're still using the old timing, you're going to drive 15 seconds past the MAP before starting your missed. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. There is no more middle marker. They're de-commissioning MM's left and right these days, so this should be no surprise. It's also of no operational consequence that I can think of. WIE UNTIL UFN These changes are "WIth Effect Until Further Notice.". That's probably the reason Jepp decided to issue a new chart. My guess is that the S-ILS minimums will come back some day, perhaps after some transmitter or antenna is repaired, and/or some flight testing can be done. But there's no date scheduled. |
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"gregscheetah" wrote in message oups.com... I recently had a similiar experience at Ponca City where the FSS said the ILS was operational during the pre-flight briefing. Center cleared me for the ILS-17 approach. I queried about the lack of GS information, they said all was well as far as they knew. About 3 miles past the OM,Center asked me if I wanted to switch to the LOC approach. I didn't, so Missed approach, no GS, minimum conditions, slight icing conditions. Anyway, after landing and reviewing what I had done wrong, I found that the FSS will not read you all the notams unless you specifically ask. DUATS will not provide all the notams. During the review of the flight, I read the notam that was similar to the one below, I read all the FAA abbreviations list, and I can not find what, exactly, "S-ILS" means. Just like the notam below, I don't see where the ILS is OTS? What does "S-ILS" mean? Greg FDC 5/1241 - FI/T WILLIAMSON COUNTY REGIONAL, MARION, IL. ILS RWY 20, AMDT 11A... S-ILS MINIMUMS NA. DISTANCE FAF TO MAP 4.57 NM. DELETE ALL REFERENCE TO MM. WIE UNTIL UFN "S-ILS" means "Straight-in ILS", you'll find it on page A1 of the NACO charts. The controller is going to clear you for an ILS whether or not the GS is working. If the GS is out of service he's supposed to say so when the approach clearance is issued; "Cleared I-L-S Runway one seven approach, glideslope unusable." Naturally, he'd have to know that it was out of service. He should have been aware of the NOTAM. You say the FSS said the ILS was operational during the pre-flight briefing. I would take that statement to mean fully operational, including the glideslope. Navaids are assumed to be operational unless there's a NOTAM saying they aren't. FSS isn't in a position to definitely say that it is operational unless they've checked NOTAMs. |
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