Departing IFR at SMO w/ Tower Closed

Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

Thanks,
Dan

The typical void time clearance for a Class E airport out in the toolies is
"enter controlled airspace on such-and-such heading". How you get there is
up to you.

I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E or
what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?

Anyway, SMO is a special situation, being where it is, and I suspect the
void time clearance will be very specific from the ground up. If nothing
were said, common sense would dictate that the DP be flown. So the
hierarchy would be, whatever was said, or if nothing said, the DP.
"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

Thanks,
Dan

Dan Thompson wrote:



I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E or
what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?

Anyway, SMO is a special situation, being where it is, and I suspect the
void time clearance will be very specific from the ground up. If nothing
were said, common sense would dictate that the DP be flown. So the
hierarchy would be, whatever was said, or if nothing said, the DP.
"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although
I have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a
heading to maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would
supercede the ODP.

Tim wrote:
Dan Thompson wrote:

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although
I have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a
heading to maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would
supercede the ODP.

If you actually get a vector, ATC is taking responsibility for obstacle/terrain
clearance. Otherwise, the ODP will keep you out of the dirt. I don't think an
initial instruction like "enter controlled airspace on heading X" qualifies as a
vector for that purpose.

If I thought I couldn't maintain obstacle/terrain clearance visually, and if the
departure clearance conflicted with the ODP, I think I'd have to negotiate a
different clearance.

Dave

"Tim" wrote in message
news:KRJbf.3346$zu6.1726@fed1read04...

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although I
have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a heading to
maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would supercede the
ODP.


SMO does not have a surface area when the tower is closed, ATC cannot
specify direction of takeoff or turn after takeoff. If it is necessary to
specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, it must be issued so
as
to apply only within controlled airspace. An assigned heading does not
supersede the ODP, compliance with an ODP is the pilot's prerogative.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Tim" wrote in message
news:KRJbf.3346$zu6.1726@fed1read04...

SoCal TRACON maintains very tight control over that airspace. Although I
have never flown IFR out of KSMO, I am sure they would assign a heading to
maintain for radar vectors. If I am correct, that would supercede the
ODP.



SMO does not have a surface area when the tower is closed, ATC cannot
specify direction of takeoff or turn after takeoff. If it is necessary to
specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, it must be issued so
as
to apply only within controlled airspace. An assigned heading does not
supersede the ODP, compliance with an ODP is the pilot's prerogative.


As I said, I haven't done it. I suspect, though, if someone started off
on something other than the assigned heading SoCal would be all over
them as soon as they saw any deviation. By that time, the departure
would almost certainly be above 700 feet, agl, and SoCal would have
absolute control. LA Airport has two ASRs, north and south. The north
side sees secondary targets well below 700 feet, agl, near SMO.

wrote in message newsWRcf.331$7A.96@fed1read04...

As I said, I haven't done it. I suspect, though, if someone started off
on something other than the assigned heading SoCal would be all over them
as soon as they saw any deviation. By that time, the departure would
almost certainly be above 700 feet, agl, and SoCal would have absolute
control.

No they wouldn't. If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in
an ATC clearance, compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's
prerogative.

There is no "rule," Dan. Some tower-controlled airports revert to Class E,
some to Class G. It's in the A/FD, listed under Airspace.

Bob Gardner

"Dan Thompson" wrote in message
om...
The typical void time clearance for a Class E airport out in the toolies
is "enter controlled airspace on such-and-such heading". How you get
there is up to you.

I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E
or what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?

Anyway, SMO is a special situation, being where it is, and I suspect the
void time clearance will be very specific from the ground up. If nothing
were said, common sense would dictate that the DP be flown. So the
hierarchy would be, whatever was said, or if nothing said, the DP.
"Dan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

Thanks,
Dan

"Dan Thompson" wrote in message
om...

I've forgotten what the airspace classification is for a Class D airport
with the tower closed that underlies Class B space. Does it revert to E
or what? Is it controlled airpace to the ground?


Class D airspace can become Class E or Class G when the tower is closed.

A surface area requires:

1.) Communications. Communications capability with aircraft which normally
operate within the surface area must exist down to the runway surface of the
primary airport. This communications may be either direct from the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the surface area or by rapid relay through
other communications facilities which are acceptable to that ATC facility,
such as a FSS.


2.) Weather Observations. Weather observations must be taken at the
surface area's primary airport during the times the surface area is
designated. The weather observation can be taken by a Federally
certificated weather observer and/or by a Federally commissioned weather
observing system.

If the tower is responsible for taking weather observations, then when the
tower closes the airspace must become Class G. If the tower serves as the
rapid communications relay for the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the
surface area, then the airspace must again become Class G when the tower
closes, even if weather observations are still taken by another entity, such
as an AWOS or ASOS.

If communications still exist and weather observations are still taken after
the tower closes, then the airspace can become Class E or Class G. It will
become Class E if necessary to accommodate instrument procedures if such
action is justified and/or in the public interest. The following factors
are among those that are considered:

1. Type of procedure including decision height or minimum descent
altitude.

2. The actual use to be made of the procedure, including whether it is
used by a certificated air carrier or an air taxi/commuter operator
providing service to the general public.

3. The operational and economic advantage offered by the procedure,
including the importance and interest to the commerce and welfare of the
community derived by the procedure.

4. Any other factors considered appropriate.

On 6 Nov 2005 21:17:24 -0800, "Dan" wrote:

Ok, here is a hypothetical question about departing from Santa Monica
and about IFR departures at uncontrolled fields in general. Suppose it
is after 9pm (the tower is closed) but before 11pm (departures still
permitted). Assuming that the field is IFR, what would be the proper
way to obtain clearance and depart? Is there an RCO on or near the
field to allow communciations with SoCal departure, or does one need to
phone in to get the clearance?

Also, "Takeoff Minimums" are listed as follows:

SANTA MONICA, CA
SANTA MONICA MUNI
TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 3, 700-2 or
climb of 290' per NM to 1000.
DEPARTURE PROCEDU Rwy 3, climb
climbing right turn direct SMO VOR/DME.
SMO R-261 to SADDE Int. Rwy 21, climbing
to intercept SMO R-250 and FIM R-148
All aircraft continue climb on course.

My question is twofold:
1. What is the proper procedure for SMO?

2. What would the proper procedure be for an uncontrolled/closed tower
field after hours with such a departure procedure listed, assuming a
clearance with void time, etc? Would I expect ATC to specify this
procedure in my clearance? Would executing this DP be at my
discretion? Obviously for obstacle clearance it might be advisable.
Would I need to inform ATC? What if it conflicted with the clearance I
was issued? How would this work?

I have no experience with SMO, but lots of experience departing IFR from
uncontrolled fields.

In most instances, ATC will NOT specify a DP. Executing the DP procedure,
at least for Part 91 flights, is pilot option. There is no requirement to
notify ATC.

There should be no conflict with the AIM recommendations:
-----------------------
AIM 5-2-6 ODPs (Obstacle Departure Procedures) are recommended for
obstruction clearance and may be flown *without* ATC clearance unless an
alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically
assigned by ATC.
-------------------

If there appears to be a conflict with the AIM recommendations, then you
should clarify that with ATC prior to departure.

It's a good idea to look at a sectional and acquaint yourself with the
obstacles just in case ATC makes an error in your clearance, especially for
a night IFR departure.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)