SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 9:27:17 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:18:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:08:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.

UH- My personal philosophy is to put maximum emphasis on safety(of course #1), followed by doing the things that maximize participation, from the entry level to the top level. This understandably can be in conflict with actions that mat favor US Team selection and performance at the WGC.
The most recent pilot poll results do not, in my view, agree with my philosophy.
The task of the RC is to seek and implement the best trade off between two conflicting objectives. I know that there is a sincere effort on the part of the RC to accomplish this objective.
Speaking for myself.
UH

Polls are very nice and make everyone feel included, but I am not so sure that in turn becomes a mandate.

I like uniformity when ever possible. I like playing with the same or similar rules. But in moving to an international rules from Local rules I think you have to start at the beginning.

Are the FAI and US goals/priorities the same?
Are the physical/structural issues that require a difference?

In discussions these can be sorted out - in a poll you get a direction not a mandate.

My take is that the pilots polled want to have US rules look more like International and the opportunity to race like international pilots, but I am not so sure it calls for blind adoption. Which by the phased approach seems to be how it is moving. Bravo.

Great job RC - keep talking and tweaking... please.

WH

Bill,
US is a tiny island of soaring.
100 times more pilots out there are making improvements.
Past SSA government was blind to all changes, regardless 2 US reps in IGC,
and was plowing wrong way.
Ryszard

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:18:36 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:08:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA.. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.

UH- My personal philosophy is to put maximum emphasis on safety(of course #1), followed by doing the things that maximize participation, from the entry level to the top level. This understandably can be in conflict with actions that mat favor US Team selection and performance at the WGC.
The most recent pilot poll results do not, in my view, agree with my philosophy.
The task of the RC is to seek and implement the best trade off between two conflicting objectives. I know that there is a sincere effort on the part of the RC to accomplish this objective.
Speaking for myself.
UH

Hank,
Pools from last 10 years where ignored.
You guys would not listen .
Switching to FAI rules is not so rosy.
Every country out there has easy regionals to qualify to hard Nationals, but we let totally new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals as long there is a space. Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.
Ryszard
pilots to fly complicated tasks to fresh pilots.

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 3:12:07 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.

Money First? What a moronic statement.

Competition soaring.... its a gold mine.

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 3:12:07 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

Switching to FAI rules is not so rosy.
Every country out there has easy regionals to qualify to hard Nationals, but we let totally new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals as long there is a space. Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.
Ryszard
pilots to fly complicated tasks to fresh pilots.



OK, I will put my 2 cents in ... but everybody reading should understand that I flew the FIRST real contest of my life last summer -- region 3, at age 67 ... and I had my glider CFI at age 19. A demanding career, a child and divorce are the explanation of that. But I flew in the sky with Hank and Ryzard ... and I had a lot of fun and nothing got broken and I didn't even land out.

I suck as a contest pilot, but I've got over 2,500 hours of flying a lot of types, comm & CFI licenses, etc.

There are many comments about edge-case rules here that I don't even follow.. The comment that gets me to respond here is "new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals" ... and I have not flown a Nationals .. .though the club-class Nationals was held at the Region 3 (we (flew as a team) entered the sports class in a Discus) and it didn't seem so intimidating -- the club class tasks weren't all that different from the sports class, and given that Peter Scarpelli whipped our class in a ASG-29 (flying 18 m), maybe we should have been in the club-class, and hence the Nationals.

I greatly appreciate all the friendly help we got, including Hank and Ryzard. I learned a lot -- hope to fly with you guys again. I hope nobody here sees anything I say as carping. But getting back to the point(s) ...

The SSA rules say "safe and fair competition" .. and I don't see why Nationals should be MUCH less safe than regionals. Longer and more difficult tasks ... sure. And I acknowledge that there is an inevitable increase in risks (particularly for the novice pilot) in longer, harder tasks. But most of the hazards of a soaring contest should not be that different, and for everybody's sake we should try to keep the hazards down, in all contests.

I'm not advising newbies to enter nationals; I would not do that. But if somebody says "risking their lives..." that sure gets my attention, and we should look really hard at anything that produces that.

Contests are very high work-load. Even as an experienced pilot, I was aware of the high work-load of being in my first contest, simply because so much was new ... and the rules are a big part of the workload for the unfamiliar. It's not obvious to me that the FAI rules are worse in this regard ... does anyone see specific issues that are? What are they?

I have no problem with experience criteria for entering nationals, if the experienced pilots see this as wise for safety ... interesting question is what they should be? This gets back to the question of what are the specific incremental risks of a nationals, and what experience would prepare/qualify for them?

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 8:49:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 3:12:07 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

Switching to FAI rules is not so rosy.
Every country out there has easy regionals to qualify to hard Nationals, but we let totally new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals as long there is a space. Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.
Ryszard
pilots to fly complicated tasks to fresh pilots.



OK, I will put my 2 cents in ... but everybody reading should understand that I flew the FIRST real contest of my life last summer -- region 3, at age 67 ... and I had my glider CFI at age 19. A demanding career, a child and divorce are the explanation of that. But I flew in the sky with Hank and Ryzard ... and I had a lot of fun and nothing got broken and I didn't even land out.

I suck as a contest pilot, but I've got over 2,500 hours of flying a lot of types, comm & CFI licenses, etc.

There are many comments about edge-case rules here that I don't even follow. The comment that gets me to respond here is "new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals" ... and I have not flown a Nationals ... .though the club-class Nationals was held at the Region 3 (we (flew as a team) entered the sports class in a Discus) and it didn't seem so intimidating -- the club class tasks weren't all that different from the sports class, and given that Peter Scarpelli whipped our class in a ASG-29 (flying 18 m), maybe we should have been in the club-class, and hence the Nationals.

I greatly appreciate all the friendly help we got, including Hank and Ryzard. I learned a lot -- hope to fly with you guys again. I hope nobody here sees anything I say as carping. But getting back to the point(s) ...

The SSA rules say "safe and fair competition" .. and I don't see why Nationals should be MUCH less safe than regionals. Longer and more difficult tasks ... sure. And I acknowledge that there is an inevitable increase in risks (particularly for the novice pilot) in longer, harder tasks. But most of the hazards of a soaring contest should not be that different, and for everybody's sake we should try to keep the hazards down, in all contests.

I'm not advising newbies to enter nationals; I would not do that. But if somebody says "risking their lives..." that sure gets my attention, and we should look really hard at anything that produces that.

Contests are very high work-load. Even as an experienced pilot, I was aware of the high work-load of being in my first contest, simply because so much was new ... and the rules are a big part of the workload for the unfamiliar. It's not obvious to me that the FAI rules are worse in this regard .... does anyone see specific issues that are? What are they?

I have no problem with experience criteria for entering nationals, if the experienced pilots see this as wise for safety ... interesting question is what they should be? This gets back to the question of what are the specific incremental risks of a nationals, and what experience would prepare/qualify for them?

Nationals are no more life risking than regional contests. The skill level is higher by a bit, the tasking has more challenge, and the duration longer, but the risk to pilot safety is not greater. What Ryzard asserted is not true.
UH

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 8:08:44 PM UTC-5, wrote:
No doubt the SSA Rules Committee has their hands full regarding the integration of FAI practices into US contest rules and scoring. Very tough job; thanks Andy, Bif, Hank, David, Rich, and John for your service to the SSA. And thank you Guy Byars for all your pro bono software work to provide Winscore.

Understood, the Rules Committee is acting on feedback from the results of the recent SSA’s pilot opinion poll. However, the intent of integrating FAI practices is not clear. I would appreciate the Rules Committee clarifying whether its prime objective is to increase the participation of US competition – OR – is the prime objective to better prepare Team USA for future international competition? Certainly, you would agree these are two distinctly different issues requiring different solutions.

Quite opposite, old US rules made most pilots crueless( no low finish, no show for crew).
Old rules tread National competition pilots as Student Pilots and are way too complicated for new competition pilots.
Ryszard